is why they were being executed; that these various things which you are now enumerating to us are the reasons why the individuals were executed, is that right?
Q Very well, proceed with your answer. Continue to read. Continue to read. prison camp under false pretenses, agents, and assistants of the NKWD, people who had participated in the deportation of Ethnic Germans, of making false statements, a socialists, and Jewish and the search for the undesirable elements.
Q Whom do you mean by the "Undesirable Elements." That is a rather large and broad category, and wide, so who would be "Undesirable elements. "Would they be Jews?
A I can not say, Your Honor, I don't know what they mean by this. members of the Russian Partisan bands. epidemics?
A I think I mentioned it, yes. I beg your pardon. Russians with food, agitators, and instigators, juvenile delinquents, Jews in general.
Q Yes. Now tell us about this last phrase, "Jews in general. "That means all Jews, doesn't it?
A I don't know, Your Honor, whether they mean all Jews.
Q What does "Jews in general" mean?
Q Yes. Now you have on your own volition called out attention to this list of people who were killed, so it must be assumed that you are familiar with this. You were advancing this as an explanation of the operation which resulted in the death of 103 Political officials, 9 Saboteurs and Looters and 125 Jews. You knew then, didn't you, that Jews were being killed because they were Jews? didn't know this. categories of executees? kind of people were concerned.
AAnd here in this report these people are listed? before, not only in Commando IV-B, but also of V and IV-A, that is to say, they refer to the activity of all commandos of the different Einsatzgruppe-C. were Jews? at Pretzsch?
A I didn't command in Pretzsch personally.
Q When you arrived in Pretzsch weren't you for a few days in command of Einsatzcommando IV-B?
Q We had understood something to that effect? not the case.
Q When did you first learn of the Fuehrer Order? with the Press Report at the IMT. That is, after the collapse, after I was in camp.
Q When did you first learn that Jews were to be executed?
A Were to be executed, Your Honor?
Q Yes. You know it.
A I don't think I understood your question correctly? the Einsatzgruppen?
Q What did Herrmann tell you in Lemberg? to take action against the bearers of the Bolshevist System, within the security mission of the commandos, and to take very severe actions against these.
Q What did he say about the Jews? Bolshevist System, or as Bolshevist functionaries, that is, rather, Jewish Bolshevist functionaries, as the Jews who were to be considered as bearers of Bolshevist system. as bearers of the Bolshevist Doctrine?
A If the security demanded it. He didn't say at the time that all Jews were to be executed, Your Honor.
with Jews who were among those who were active in carrying on the flag of Bolshevism, isn't that what he told you? should or should not be executed?
Q Well, how was the decision reached?
Q And how would they decide it?
A I personally, Your Honor? whether a certain number of Jews were to be executed or not?
A I don't think that I can answer this question so very generally. a certain number of Jews, didn't he? One-hundred Jews were brought before him, he knows of the one-hundred Jews, he must decide whether they were to be executed or not, How does he decide?
A I don't know, your Honor. the unit was never separated. You were the Senior Officer in command, and if you are a man of intelligence, you knew how Hermann finally decided whether to execute or not to execute; either you knew, or you are trying to make us believe you are an ignoramus, which you certainly do not appear to be. Herrmann made.
in the same mission. You were there for the same purpose, that is the reason? didn't bring them over, then they were brought to him because he had given an order for that, and he would not have given this order to me, but he would have given this to a member of the Department IV. That is why I can not say what he would have done in a theoretical case, because the one-hundred Jews would be brought to him.
Q It is not a theoretical case. It is a natural case in this very incidence of the killing.
Q No, it is not theoretical, you were there. While you were there, while you held the High Office in this commando were there 230 people who were killed in one operation. Now, how did Herrmann come to his conclusion as to whether he should kill these people, and did kill them, how did he arrive at his decision to kill these people? just said, kill these people? Maybe something happened in this period which led to this. Maybe he had an order from the Army to do it. tell us? gations?
A I can not say, I don't know.
Q You were there?
A I was with the Commando Your Honor? commando?
A I don't know, Your Honor.
Q Give us an estimate? right? many were killed. An execution is not an abstract thing, It is a very tangible material thing?
Q All right. How many were executed?
Q Now don't give us "maybe". It is an actual thing. How did you find out about these executions, and how many were executed?
Q How many were executed in each execution? Ten?
A I don't know.
Q Fifteen?
A I don't know. were killed. How did you know that?
Q Were you present at that execution?
Q How did you know twenty or thirty were killed? the men were excited about the fact they had to carry out an execution.
Q They talked about it a great deal, did they?
A I beg your pardon? About this first execution, yes, they talked a lot.
twenty or thirty? said why they killed those twenty or thirty; what was charged against these twenty or thirty; what did they say as the reason why these twenty or thirty were killed?
A I don't know.
Q Did they talk about it?
Q Did they say they were Jews?
Q Did they say why these Jews were killed? these twenty or thirty? the murdered prisoners who had been found, whom the Bolshevists had left behind; that these were people who had something to do with these incidents.
Q Then you did know why they were executed, don't you?
Q But you didn't tell us that when I first asked you, did you? people were killed.
Q And you said, no?
Q Yes, now you tell us you did know why they were executed. Where did you get your knowledge?
Q Upon what do you base your conclusion?
Q And what is your knowledge based upon? in the prison -- pardon me, were found. because one-hundred bodies were found there?
A No one told me that, Your Honor. This is a conclusion I drew myself.
Q Did you talk to any men about that?
Q All right, and what did they say?
AAbout the question of the motive, I don't know that.
Q Tell us exactly what did they say about the motive for the killing? found out that there were people who were executed. Did you ask any one as to whether these two events were connected with each other in any way? Honor. which to base your conclusion?
A Yes, as I said. Your Honor, I had heard that five-hundred murdered prisoners, among them German prisoners of war, had been found in the prison. it to five-hundred, which is correct?
A Pardon me, the translation must have been wrong. I spoke of several hundred.
Q How many is it now? You have given one-hundred, several hundred, and five hundred. How many were there?
Q Five-hundred. All right now. Did they tell you that they had executed these twenty or thirty because the five-hundred prisoners who had been murdered?
Q Then how did you come to that conclusion? murder of the German prisoners of war had been carried out.
of German prisoners of war had been carried out.
Q Well, someone must have said something to that effect. Suppose they were killed because they had done something else? Suppose they had been killed because they were looters? You had to have some facts upon which to draw your conclusion which you have now given us. What fact did you base it upon? discussed - that there was great excitement on the part of the German Army among the troops stationed there and that there were excesses on the part of these troops because they found members of this unit brutally murdered in this prison. said "We have killed 20 to 30 people because of the murder." Is that what you want us to believe? No one ever made that statement?
A I can not say. In general maybe somebody did.
Q Well, then some one did tell you why the executions took place?
A He wouldn't have had to give this explanation to me.
Q Well, you said everybody was talking about them. You did hear someone say that men were executed because of the murders which had occurred in the prison, is that right? said why these 20 to 30 had been killed, is that right?
Q Now you will have to remember. You heard these people talking about executions, it was the first execution. The men were quite disturbed over the fact that they had to conduct these executions, shooting down defenseless people. The Army was tremendously excited about it, everyone was talking about these executions. Now, in all this talk no one said why these 20 to 30 were killed? You want us to believe that?
A Perhaps they didn't talk about it because it seemed obvious that it was in connection with the murder of German soldiers. right on the spot that that's the reason why they were shot?
Q Did you, right at the time it happened, know that that was the reason?
A I don't quite get the question. therefore, it wasn't necessary to make any inquiry. Did you know right at the time of the execution why these 20 or 30 were killed? that was the reason the men were executed? killed, why didn't you immediately give that answer instead of requiring about 15 to 20 minutes of talking back and forth to have you give what to you was so obvious immediately when you heard about the execution? Why didn't you tell us that at once? said no, didn't I? what I assumed at that time. and read to us the first part of the interrogation, when the witness was being questioned as to why these individuals were executed. Were you here at that time?
(Reporter indicates "no")
THE PRESIDENT: No, it was before that. And who was the reporter proceeding you, Gallagher?
Would you please have call Mr. Gallagher and tell him what we are seeking and whether he can find it in his notes?
Q What did your work consist of with Einsatzkommando IV-B?
Q And what did the SD work consist of? life in the area in which we were stationed and to report about it.
Q You were to gather intelligence, weren't you? economics, administration, etc.
A You had to make reports on conditions among the population? the Germans, weren't there? looters, and there were bearers of Bolshevism? And all these were scheduled for execution when it was determined that they were such?
Q Yes. So, therefore, you had to make reports on the potential enemies of the German forces?
Q Well, why not? questions which concerned the enemy. All such questions were already handled by the police in Germany and the same was done in the assignment.
Q You were liaison officer with the Army, too, weren't you?
Q And you conferred with them on intelligence, didn't you?
A I only functioned as liaison officer once. And, at that time I conferred with G-2 of the Army.
Q And what is G-2 of the Army doing? It gathers intelligence with regard to the enemy, doesn't it? to the German Army, didn't you?
A No, Your Honor, this is the way it is. The "Barbarossa" order, which was the basic order and it has already been cited here, had ordered that the liaison from the Einsatzkommandos to the Army would run via G-2. That was the man who was the liaison agency of the Army. activities in Russia, is that correct?
A In what field prepared myself - in what field? did in Germany - SD work?
Q And that included counter-intelligence, did it not?
A No, not at that time any more. Counter-intelligence, if I remember correctly, since 1938 or the beginning of 1939 was taken away from the SD completely.
Q So you were trained in counter-intelligence work, weren't you? rity, not about the entire counter-intelligence field. The SD intelligence was only of an informational nature, not connected with police or executive missions. Police prosecution of sabotage and espionage, which are the main components of counter-intelligence, were completely in the hands of the State Police from the very beginning.
enemy which may be of assistance to ones own forces. That's right, isn't it? I can only speak of what we called SD work. That's what I did in the assignment. SD work means that I would have to gather intelligence about the situation in the various domestic spheres within the indigenous population, that is, Russian population - questions of law, administration, culture, science, and economics, especially economic problems were uppermost during the advance in Russia. the population, wasn't there? about that. I was never able to determine that. you. I only asked you whether when an execution occurred if there wasn't some reaction among the population to it?
A That depended on two matters, Your Honor. First of all how the execution was carried out. I am speaking theoretically ' whether there was the possibility that the large population learned about it. And, second the question of information service. If such a reaction existed on the part of the population it doesn't mean that I heard about it or had to hear about it.
it and the question hasn't been put to you. this assignment I did not know of any reaction of the people to these executions or, rather, I was not able to determine any such reaction. I heard nothing about this through my intelligence channels. them it would be known in the town if it wasn't too large a place, wouldn't it? of the population you would have to make some reference to the fact that there was terror and fright in the town because of the execution, wouldn't you?
A Well, your Honor, I didn't hear about the fact that Kommando 4-B marched into a town and then seized the Jews.
Q Were you in the town of K-l-o-c-z-o-w?
Q What happened in that town? How many did 4-B kill in that town?
Q Well, was it a large number of a small number?
A I didn't spend any time in Kloczow. I drove through it. How many did the Kommando kill in Kloczow?
A In Kloczow?
Q Yes, how many did the Kommando kill in Kloczow?
A I do not know. I assume that they killed none because I think I read in some situation report that the group staff of Einsatzgruppen C was active in Kloczow. And in this connection it is mentioned that the Kommando 4-B - I hope I am repeating this correctly - that is had passed by Kloczow.
If I understand this expression correctly in the report then this refers to the fact that Kloczow was by-passed by the forces of Kommando 4-B or rather that Kommando 4-B searched the town of Kloczow for material left behind by the Bolchivists.
Q You are trying to adjust your explanation to the report. I want you to tell me what you know that 4-B did in Kloczow.
A I can't tell you anything about that, your Honor.
Q Did the group staff conduct any executions in Kloczow?
A I do not know. I just referred to the group staff because I saw this incident in the report. When I went through Kloczow I did not come into contact with the group staff. The Group staff must have come to Kloczow after the Kommando because the group staff was still in Lemberg at that time.
Q What did 4-B do in Kloczow? just quoted.
Q Don't tell me about the situation report. I want you to tell me what you know. I can read the situation report. What did you do in Kloczow? other --
Q And what did the Kommando do in Kloczow?
Q Well you were with the Kommando, weren't you? I drove through Kloczow.
Q Didn't the Kommando stop at all? that parts of the Kommando did stop there.
Q And what did they do? What did they do when they stopped there?
Q What did you do in Kloczow?
A I do not know. I wasn't there.
Q The Kommando always remained intact did it not?
A On the march it often fell apart. That was unavoidable and there were interruptions of hours between various parts so that parts would come up later. I just want to give you an example, When we crossed the Djnepr River in order to get near the bridge there was a distance of 4 kilometers and I needed ten hours for this while others immediately able to cross the bridge.
Q Didn't you tell us in the early part of your direct examination that 4-B was a unit which did not separate? your Honor. the Kommando remained there and that you went straight on, is that right?
A No. That's not the way it was. Your Honor.
Q Well, tell us just what happened in Kloczow? Did any part of your Kommando remain after you went through? Kloczow?
A Your Honor, may I briefly describe this? it was in Kloczow?
A Parts of the Kommando came through Kloczow before me. That is to say the first parts must have come through Kloczow about a day before me. The advance took place in groups and I came with the last few vehicles.
Q Then 4-B did separate occasionally, didn't it?
the conditions of War made it necessary that the Kommando would separate temporarily for hours or days. But it was not so - - formed executions in Kloczow before you arrived, wasn't it? had been ordered by the Kommando leader. for hours and some times for days, is that what you tell us now?
Q Well, you said days just a moment ago, didn't you? Hours and days. Did you say that?
Q How many days?
Q Well, days would be more than one day, wouldn't it?
Q Well, when you say days you mean more than one day, don't you?
Q So, therefore, you didn't tell us the truth when you said in the very early part of your examination that the unit never separated, did you? as I think I remember them, this does not exclude the fact that small parts of the Kommando in order to carry out definite missions were briefly or temporarily separated from the Kommando. tion. At the time you were describing this other situation it was to your benefit to say that the unit did not separate. Now, since you assume it will be to your benefit to say that it does separate, you said it did separate. That's the way you are answering these questions, isn't it?
A No, one does not exclude the other. The situation has been that it was reported that other Kommandos were separated into two or three sub-Kommandos which operated independently, that is, one Kommando was hundreds of kilometers away from another Kommando. This was not the case in our Kommando. We were not separated that way. weren't you? Kommando? to arrive at the new garrison as quickly as possible.
Q How many men did you have? any situation weren't you?
A Yes, I was prepared. Whether my forces would have sufficed I do not know.
Q If you met Partisans you would fight them, wouldn't you? wouldn't have looked for it with the strength of 8 men. was in the town, not a large group, would you try to locate them? and they were in a house, would you send your eight men there and try to capture them? to set fire to some houses, four people. Would you go and try to arrest them?
A My own house in which I was staying?
Q No, a house in the town. They were saboteurs and they assumed you were going to take over this house for your quarters and they were going to burn it. Would you go and arrest them?
A I can't decide this generally.
Q Well, no this isn't general. This is a specific question. You are marching through a town with six to eight men and you learn that there are some saboteurs contrary to German regulations and against the German forces and you know they are going to blow up a house and you know where these four men are. Would you go and arrest them?