Q.Did you believe that that was correct?
A.I cannot say anything about that; at the time I was still too young.
Q.I possibly made myself not enough clear. I, of course, wanted to say if you considered it correct if these people were arrested and sent to concentration camps just in order to clean the Heimatfront from the Jews.
A.Do you mean my attitude to the question at that time or now?
Q.Not today; then, when you did see how the people were sent to the concentration camps, and you knew about it.
A.At the time I did not know that they were sent to concentration camps. I only knew that they were sent into camps. I assumed that those were some kind of internment camps.
Q.Did you know that concentration camps existed in Germany?
A.Yes.
Q.How many did you know about in 1939?
A.In 1939 I should have heard of two, one was the socalled Camp Sachsenhausen near Berlin; and the other one was at Dachau.
Q.Did you learn about Buchenwald during your activity in *---*
A.I don't think so. The existence of the Camp Buchenwald I think I only heard about later.
Q.There is an affidavit in your document book which was not submitted by your counsel. If the Tribunal pleases, on pages 60 and 61 of the document book Fendler. The affiant here tells the story that you assisted here Frau Suessmuth and her Jewish husband in the camp of Stefanau, the existence of which you have here testified just 15 minutes ago, and she goes on to say that her husband died in 1940 in the concentration camp at Buchenwald. Did she, meaning herself, an Aryan, get arrested by the Gestapo in the same year and did you make an intervention that she got out.
Did she not tell you ever that her husband was later sent to Buchenwald?
A.I do not remember that. Probably Frau Suessmuth at the time did not even know where her husband was; she probably only knew he was in a concentration camp, or at least he was not with her any longer. She only heard afterwards that he had been brought to Buchenwald at the time.
Q.Was it known to you that Czechoslovakian citizens were sent for forced labor to Germany at that time?
A.At this time I don't think so. At that time, if I am correctly informed, people were asked to work in Germany voluntarily.
Q.I think there is also an affidavit in existence which shows that you might have known at least something about that and this is on page 64 of the document book Fendler. I do not want to take the time of the Tribunal to read that into the record buy it is clear from the document that you, Mr. Fendler, were of some assistance to Czechoslovakian citizens when they were not sent to Germany, so you must have known by then that arrangements were not so voluntary?
A.Mr. Prosecutor, may I give a brief explanation here. This assistance took place after I left Olmuetz. Until the collapse, I must say now, unfortunately, I retained my apartment at Olmuetz and stayed there occasionally. This event to which this refers as far as I remember happened in the year 1944.
Q.But you knew then before the collapse of Germany that Czechoslovakian citizens were forcibly sent to Germany for work?
A.Of course. My denial only referred to the time that I was active in Olmuetz until the end of 1944.
Q.You have given the Tribunal information about your knowledge, what happened in the East, about your knowledge as to what happened in Czechoslovakia; about your knowledge as to what happened or did not happen to the Jews.
Did you consider during the time you were a member of the SD, of the Party and of the SS, these measures were justified?
A.To this rather general question unfortunately I have to give a general answer. I must say that collective measures of that sort are rejected by me on principles and that I regret them for these persons who are concerned buy this applies to all such things and for all times.
QYou were a student of International law -- you were a student of law so you would know something about international law. Do you think the orders as they were known to you about the summary procedure, where people could be executed at the discretion of the officer, where no procedures according to martial law -- that would be the right word -were held -- did you consider these orders correct according to the laws and customs of war according to the law valid in Germany and common to all civilized nations? Did you consider them in accordance with these norms?
AI would like to say the following here.
QIf you will explain -- I would be grateful if you could answer this question with "yes" or "no." Then you explain; but this question would be nice if you could answer it first with "yes" or "no."
AUnfortunately, I am unable to do that in this case because the question was too complicated and put in a too general way.
QI can possibly make it a little bit more specific. Do you think that the order which abandoned procedure according to martial law and gave discretion to an officer, who must not have any legal training, who must have only had a commission, to shoot people and to order executions was in accordance with the laws and customs of war and the Hague Convention?
AI fully realized that it did not agree and conform with those laws, but please, may I give further explanations on this? During the time of my assignment in the East I was shocked and moved by the impressions I received there, about the manner of warfare by the Russians. I don't want to say now afterwards, nor do I feel called upon to do this, that I want to justify any German measures; I can only say that in the condition that I was at the time I could not arrive at any ambiguous decision above the necessity and justification of the measures ordered by the German leadership. I can only say that concerning the orders given I was shocked.
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWitness, this affidavit of yours signed on June 27 was given voluntarily. was it now?
AIt was given voluntarily, yes.
QYou say that Mr. Wartenberg threatened with sending you back to Czechoslovakia. Now, do you stand on that statement?
AI said that he made this statement during the interrogation, your Honor, not when signing the affidavit.
QVery well. During the interrogation did he threaten with sending you back to Czechoslovakia?
AYes.
QWhy should you worry about going back to Czechoslovakia? With all the people you helped there they would probably have received you with open arms, wouldn't they?
APerhaps theoretically, your Honor.
QWhat did you do in Czechoslovakia that caused you to fear that if you returned to Czechoslovakia harm would visit you? What did you do there?
APlease, may I explain the situation?
QPlease answer that. What did you do in Czechoslovakia that, if Mr. Wartenberg threatened be put into effect, would have caused you harm?
AI myself did not do anything there, buy Mr. Wartenberg told me: "You know how your kind of people are dealt with there. You can expect to hang two hours after the verdict is pronounced." That is what Mr. Wartenberg said so I replied to him: "I am not afraid of facing any Czech authorities." Of course, all that matters is if they would give a just verdict on my attitude in Olmuetz.
QWell, because of this threat which he made did you tell him things which were not true?
AI did not say any untrue things, your Honor.
QThen, even if he had threatened to send you to Siberia it in no way affected the truthfulness of what you told him?
AThe fact of the threatening I only mentioned because the manner of interrogation by Mr. Wartenberg rather excited me and it is possible that in that state my recollection failed me partly but, none the less, in spite of these threats, I tried, to the best of my knowledge and belief, to speak the truth as far as possible.
QDid you tell him in fact the following: "I have never been officially designated as a deputy of Hermann's. I have, however, taken charge of official matters during his absence." Did you tell him that?
AYes.
QIs that true?
AThat is true.
QThen, there is really nothing in this affidavit which you do not today affirm, is there?
AIt is not a matter of trying to deny any statements made in the affidavit, your Honor. I merely asked that some supplementary remarks should be inserted in order to make the meaning of that what I had said quite clear.
QVery well; so far as it goes, it is correct.
AIf the interpretation which can be made in this form are the same as the truth and the actual facts as I related them at the time.
QYou were with Special Kommando 4-B between 7 September -- no, between 13 and 26 September, were you?
AYes.
QNow, during that time there was an execution which consisted of 133 political officials, 9 sabateurs and looters and 125 Jews. Did you know of that execution?
AI cannot say it, your Honor, and it cannot be seen from the report, either.
QPlease answer my question. Do you know of this execution?
AThese might be executions, your Honor, which were not carried out by the Kommando.
There might have been several executions. As I said in my direct examination, I heard about it in Krementschug that one execution was carried out, shortly before the transfer of the Kommando to Poltawa. Whether those persons were excuted on that occasion mentioned in this report here now, I cannot say.
QThis report very specifically states that there was an execution done by Special Kommando 4-B in the period already indicated and that execution brought about the death of the individuals I have mentioned. Do you know of that execution -- yes or no?
AAbout this execution -- if only one is mentioned -- I do not know. I know that an execution took place in Krementschug.
QWhy don't you know of this execution which occurred while you were with the organization which performed it? Explain why you, the senior officer in command of an organization which only consisted of 80 men or a hundred at the most, always one compact unit, why you would not know of an episode of this gravity?
AI can only say, your Honor, that if an execution of that extent had been carried out I should probably have heard about it or possibly I assume so, but I cannot say in detail whether this execution occurred. I only know -- I don't know whether the persons mentioned here were executed then; I only know that some execution took place.
QHow many people were executed at the execution which you recall having occurred at this time?
AIn Krementschug? You mean in this time we are now discussing, your Honor?
QBetween 13 and 26 September.
AI do not remember any figure, your Honor.
QDo you remember the execution?
AI remember to have heard at the time that an execution would be carried out or was carried out.
QWere the preparations such as to indicate a large execution, a numerous execution?
AI cannot say that. I do not recollect the preparations on that I would have noticed them.
THE PRESIDENT:Between now and Monday morning you try and recollect just box many were executed at that execution and all other relevant facts.
The Tribunal will now adjourn until Monday morning at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 15 December 1947 at 0930 hours).
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America; against Otto Ohlendorf, et al.
, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 15 December 1947.
0930-10.00. Justice Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session, God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
DR. SUSS:Dr. Suss, representative for the attorney Dr. Linck for the defendant Ruehl. Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Ruehl be excused from this afternoon session, and from tomorrows session the entire day, in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT:Do you want him sent to Room 57 this afternoon?
DR. SUSS:Yes, I would like to ask for this.
THE PRESIDENT:The defendant Ruehl will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon, and tomorrow all day. This afternoon he will be taken to Room 57 where he may confer with his counsel.
DR. SUSS:Thank you, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:You are welcome.
QWitness, on Saturday afternoon, just before adjournment, we were discussing the action which occurred while you were with Einsatzcommando IV-B, which resulted in the execution of 103 Political officials, 9 saboteurs and looters, and 125 Jews. Now tell us about this action. You were with the Einsatzcommando at the time, you were the next senior officer in rank in the commando, and it is inconceivable that you would not know about this operation?
AYour Honor, I have already said during the time of my assignment I had nothing to do with the executive jobs, that is, the arrests, investigations, and finally with the carrying out of the sentence which led to the executions.
In addition, I didn't know about the files of these cases -
QJust a moment. Did you know about this particular action which occurred between 13th and 26th of September which brought about the execution of 103 Political Officials, 9 Saboteurs and Looters, and 125 Jews?
AI don't know, Your Honor, whether this was one action -
QWell, proceed.
AAs I have already said on Saturday, I heard about it in Kremenchug that one execution took place, but I don't know what people were concerned there.
QHow many executions occurred during the time that you were with the IV-B?
AAs I said on Saturday, it must have been about six of which I heard.
QAnd how many were killed in these six executions?
AI can not say, Your Honor, as I don't know.
QFor what were the executions?
AI can not give you details, but if I may refer to the document, or, rather to the report to which the president has just referred, if I may refer to this, that is in Document Book II-A, Document No. 3155. There are two paragraphs after the passage which Your Honor has cited, and, in this it is stated in general that the following motives are at the basis for the execution carried out by the commando: Political functionaries, looters, saboteurs, active Communists, carriers of such political ideas.
QNow, as you are reading this report, you know that is why they were being executed; that these various things which you are now enumerating to us are the reasons why the individuals were executed, is that right?
AI must assume so.
QVery well, proceed with your answer. Continue to read. Continue to read.
AJews who had succeeded in being released from the prison camp under false pretenses, agents, and assistants of the NKWD, people who had participated in the deportation of Ethnic Germans, of making false statements, a socialists, and Jewish and the search for the undesirable elements.
QWhom do you mean by the "Undesirable Elements." That is a rather large and broad category, and wide, so who would be "Undesirable elements. "Would they be Jews?
AI can not say, Your Honor, I don't know what they mean by this.
QContinue with the enumeration.
AAsocial elements, Partisans, Political functionaries, members of the Russian Partisan bands.
QYou left one phrase out, dangers of plagues and epidemics?
AI think I mentioned it, yes. I beg your pardon.
QAll right, proceed.
AMembers of Russian bands, people who supplied the Russians with food, agitators, and instigators, juvenile delinquents, Jews in general.
QYes. Now tell us about this last phrase, "Jews in general. "That means all Jews, doesn't it?
AI don't know, Your Honor, whether they mean all Jews.
QWhat does "Jews in general" mean?
APossibly Jews, who were shot because they were Jews.
QYes.
ASofar as I can conclude this from the report.
QYes. Now you have on your own volition called out attention to this list of people who were killed, so it must be assumed that you are familiar with this. You were advancing this as an explanation of the operation which resulted in the death of 103 Political officials, 9 Saboteurs and Looters and 125 Jews. You knew then, didn't you, that Jews were being killed because they were Jews?
ANo, Your Honor, at the time of my assignment I didn't know this.
QWhy then, did you list for us these various categories of executees?
AYour Honor, you asked me whether I can explain what kind of people were concerned.
QYes.
AAnd here in this report these people are listed?
QYes.
AAnd this refers to all the executions which occurred before, not only in Commando IV-B, but also of V and IV-A, that is to say, they refer to the activity of all commandos of the different Einsatzgruppe-C.
QYou knew that Jews were being killed because they were Jews?
ANot during the assignment.
QAnd how long were you in command of IV-B, which was at Pretzsch?
AI didn't command in Pretzsch personally.
QWhen you arrived in Pretzsch weren't you for a few days in command of Einsatzcommando IV-B?
ANo, Your Honor.
QWe had understood something to that effect?
AMaybe I expressed myself mistakenly, but this was not the case.
QWhen did you first learn of the Fuehrer Order?
AI first heard about the Fuehrer Order in connection with the Press Report at the IMT. That is, after the collapse, after I was in camp.
QWhen did you first learn that Jews were to be executed?
AWere to be executed, Your Honor?
QYes.
AFrom the beginning on.
QYes. You know it.
AI don't think I understood your question correctly?
QWhen did you know that Jews were to be executed by the Einsatzgruppen?
AAfter the collapse.
QWhat did Herrmann tell you in Lemberg?
AHerrmann said in Lemberg that it had been ordered to take action against the bearers of the Bolshevist System, within the security mission of the commandos, and to take very severe actions against these.
QWhat did he say about the Jews?
AYes, I will come to that, As bearers of the Bolshevist System, or as Bolshevist functionaries, that is, rather, Jewish Bolshevist functionaries, as the Jews who were to be considered as bearers of Bolshevist system.
QTherefore, they were to be executed, were they not, as bearers of the Bolshevist Doctrine?
AIf the security demanded it. He didn't say at the time that all Jews were to be executed, Your Honor.
QHe said, all bearers of Bolshevism were to be executed with Jews who were among those who were active in carrying on the flag of Bolshevism, isn't that what he told you?
AThat if necessary they would have to be executed.
QWhat would determine the necessity of whether they should or should not be executed?
AWell, that was a very difficult decision.
QWell, how was the decision reached?
AIt was the commando leaders with any such case.
QAnd how would they decide it?
AI personally, Your Honor?
QHow would the commander of the commando decide whether a certain number of Jews were to be executed or not?
AI don't think that I can answer this question so very generally.
QYes, you can, yes, you can.
AThat depends on the local condition, accordingly.
QHermann would have to decide whether to execute a certain number of Jews, didn't he? One-hundred Jews were brought before him, he knows of the one-hundred Jews, he must decide whether they were to be executed or not, How does he decide?
AI don't know, your Honor.
QYes, you do, You were right there with the unit, and the unit was never separated. You were the Senior Officer in command, and if you are a man of intelligence, you knew how Hermann finally decided whether to execute or not to execute; either you knew, or you are trying to make us believe you are an ignoramus, which you certainly do not appear to be.
AWell, Your Honor, how can I say what kind of decision Herrmann made.
QBecause you were with him, you were a brother officer, you were in the same mission. You were there for the same purpose, that is the reason?
AYour Honor, if a hundred of Jews were brought before him, I didn't bring them over, then they were brought to him because he had given an order for that, and he would not have given this order to me, but he would have given this to a member of the Department IV. That is why I can not say what he would have done in a theoretical case, because the one-hundred Jews would be brought to him.
QIt is not a theoretical case. It is a natural case in this very incidence of the killing.
AFor me it is theoretical, Your Honor.
QNo, it is not theoretical, you were there. While you were there, while you held the High Office in this commando were there 230 people who were killed in one operation. Now, how did Herrmann come to his conclusion as to whether he should kill these people, and did kill them, how did he arrive at his decision to kill these people?
AI can not say, your Honor.
QWell, do you assume he just did it out of pure whim or comprise, just said, kill these people?
ANo, there was some kind of files which were submitted to him. Maybe something happened in this period which led to this. Maybe he had an order from the Army to do it.
QThen he conducted an investigation, is that what you want to tell us?
AYes, an investigation was carried out by Department IV.
QBefore he ordered an execution, did he always conduct investigations?
AI can not say, I don't know.
QYou were there?
AI was with the Commando Your Honor?
QHow many were executed during the time that you were with the commando?
AI don't know, Your Honor.
QGive us an estimate?
AI could not say it, whatever number would be wrong.
QYou told us here you knew of six or seven executions, is that right?
AYes.
QHow many were killed in each execution.
AI already said, Your Honor ---
QWell, if you knew about an execution, you know generally how many were killed. An execution is not an abstract thing, It is a very tangible material thing?
AYes.
QAll right. How many were executed?
AIt may be that I heard about it, what was told.
QNow don't give us "maybe". It is an actual thing. How did you find out about these executions, and how many were executed?
AI can not say, Your Honor.
QHow many were executed in each execution? Ten?
AI don't know.
QFifteen?
AI don't know.
QHow did you know of the one execution where twenty or thirty were killed. How did you know that?
AThat was the first execution, Your Honor.
QWere you present at that execution?
ANo.
QHow did you know twenty or thirty were killed?
AA lot was said about it in the Commando at the time, because the men were excited about the fact they had to carry out an execution.
QThey talked about it a great deal, did they?
AI beg your pardon? About this first execution, yes, they talked a lot.
QAccording to that you indicate there they had killed these twenty or thirty?
ANo, what I heard about it.
QNow, they did talk a great deal, certainly, and they would have said why they killed those twenty or thirty; what was charged against these twenty or thirty; what did they say as the reason why these twenty or thirty were killed?
AI don't know.
QDid they talk about it?
AYes.
QDid they say they were Jews?
AThey were Jews among them, yes.
QDid they say why these Jews were killed?
ANo.
QDid they give any explanation as to why anybody was killed among these twenty or thirty?
AIt seemed to me at the time that these had some connection with the murdered prisoners who had been found, whom the Bolshevists had left behind; that these were people who had something to do with these incidents.
QThen you did know why they were executed, don't you?
AThat was the conclusion which I drew.
QBut you didn't tell us that when I first asked you, did you?
AYou asked me, Your Honor, whether they told me about why these people were killed.
QAnd you said, no?
AI said, no, yes,
QYes, now you tell us you did know why they were executed. Where did you get your knowledge?
AI just said that this was a conclusion of my own.
QUpon what do you base your conclusion?
AOn the basis of my knowledge.
QAnd what is your knowledge based upon?
AOn the basis of the fact, that one hundred bodies were found in the prison -- pardon me, were found.
QAnd who told you that these twenty or thirty were executed because one-hundred bodies were found there?
ANo one told me that, Your Honor. This is a conclusion I drew myself.
QDid you talk to any men about that?
AThat is possible, yes.
QAll right, and what did they say?
AAbout the question of the motive, I don't know that.
QTell us exactly what did they say about the motive for the killing?
AThe men told me nothing about the motive for the killing.
QYou knew that one-hundred men had been murdered, and then you found out that there were people who were executed. Did you ask any one as to whether these two events were connected with each other in any way?
AI did not know that one-hundred people had been killed, Your Honor.
QHow can you draw a conclusion without having something upon which to base your conclusion?
AYes, as I said. Your Honor, I had heard that five-hundred murdered prisoners, among them German prisoners of war, had been found in the prison.
QYou told us a moment ago it was one-hundred, now you have increased it to five-hundred, which is correct?
APardon me, the translation must have been wrong. I spoke of several hundred.
QHow many is it now? You have given one-hundred, several hundred, and five hundred. How many were there?
AFive-hundred.
QFive-hundred. All right now. Did they tell you that they had executed these twenty or thirty because the five-hundred prisoners who had been murdered?
ANo.
QThen how did you come to that conclusion?
AIt seems to me fairly obvious that the reprisal for the murder of the German prisoners of war had been carried out.
AIt seemed to me fairly obvious that a reprisal for the murders of German prisoners of war had been carried out.
QWell, someone must have said something to that effect. Suppose they were killed because they had done something else? Suppose they had been killed because they were looters? You had to have some facts upon which to draw your conclusion which you have now given us. What fact did you base it upon?
AI could perhaps mention another fact which I have already discussed - that there was great excitement on the part of the German Army among the troops stationed there and that there were excesses on the part of these troops because they found members of this unit brutally murdered in this prison.
QAnd in all this excitement, and in all this talk, no one ever said "We have killed 20 to 30 people because of the murder." Is that what you want us to believe? No one ever made that statement?
AI can not say. In general maybe somebody did.
QWell, then some one did tell you why the executions took place?
AHe wouldn't have had to give this explanation to me.
QWell, you said everybody was talking about them. You did hear someone say that men were executed because of the murders which had occurred in the prison, is that right?
ANo.
QIn all this discussion, in all this excitement, no one ever said why these 20 to 30 had been killed, is that right?
AI cannot remember.
QNow you will have to remember. You heard these people talking about executions, it was the first execution. The men were quite disturbed over the fact that they had to conduct these executions, shooting down defenseless people. The Army was tremendously excited about it, everyone was talking about these executions. Now, in all this talk no one said why these 20 to 30 were killed? You want us to believe that?