AI must assume so.
QVery well, proceed with your answer. Continue to read. Continue to read.
AJews who had succeeded in being released from the prison camp under false pretenses, agents, and assistants of the NKWD, people who had participated in the deportation of Ethnic Germans, of making false statements, a socialists, and Jewish and the search for the undesirable elements.
QWhom do you mean by the "Undesirable Elements." That is a rather large and broad category, and wide, so who would be "Undesirable elements. "Would they be Jews?
AI can not say, Your Honor, I don't know what they mean by this.
QContinue with the enumeration.
AAsocial elements, Partisans, Political functionaries, members of the Russian Partisan bands.
QYou left one phrase out, dangers of plagues and epidemics?
AI think I mentioned it, yes. I beg your pardon.
QAll right, proceed.
AMembers of Russian bands, people who supplied the Russians with food, agitators, and instigators, juvenile delinquents, Jews in general.
QYes. Now tell us about this last phrase, "Jews in general. "That means all Jews, doesn't it?
AI don't know, Your Honor, whether they mean all Jews.
QWhat does "Jews in general" mean?
APossibly Jews, who were shot because they were Jews.
QYes.
ASofar as I can conclude this from the report.
QYes. Now you have on your own volition called out attention to this list of people who were killed, so it must be assumed that you are familiar with this. You were advancing this as an explanation of the operation which resulted in the death of 103 Political officials, 9 Saboteurs and Looters and 125 Jews. You knew then, didn't you, that Jews were being killed because they were Jews?
ANo, Your Honor, at the time of my assignment I didn't know this.
QWhy then, did you list for us these various categories of executees?
AYour Honor, you asked me whether I can explain what kind of people were concerned.
QYes.
AAnd here in this report these people are listed?
QYes.
AAnd this refers to all the executions which occurred before, not only in Commando IV-B, but also of V and IV-A, that is to say, they refer to the activity of all commandos of the different Einsatzgruppe-C.
QYou knew that Jews were being killed because they were Jews?
ANot during the assignment.
QAnd how long were you in command of IV-B, which was at Pretzsch?
AI didn't command in Pretzsch personally.
QWhen you arrived in Pretzsch weren't you for a few days in command of Einsatzcommando IV-B?
ANo, Your Honor.
QWe had understood something to that effect?
AMaybe I expressed myself mistakenly, but this was not the case.
QWhen did you first learn of the Fuehrer Order?
AI first heard about the Fuehrer Order in connection with the Press Report at the IMT. That is, after the collapse, after I was in camp.
QWhen did you first learn that Jews were to be executed?
AWere to be executed, Your Honor?
QYes.
AFrom the beginning on.
QYes. You know it.
AI don't think I understood your question correctly?
QWhen did you know that Jews were to be executed by the Einsatzgruppen?
AAfter the collapse.
QWhat did Herrmann tell you in Lemberg?
AHerrmann said in Lemberg that it had been ordered to take action against the bearers of the Bolshevist System, within the security mission of the commandos, and to take very severe actions against these.
QWhat did he say about the Jews?
AYes, I will come to that, As bearers of the Bolshevist System, or as Bolshevist functionaries, that is, rather, Jewish Bolshevist functionaries, as the Jews who were to be considered as bearers of Bolshevist system.
QTherefore, they were to be executed, were they not, as bearers of the Bolshevist Doctrine?
AIf the security demanded it. He didn't say at the time that all Jews were to be executed, Your Honor.
QHe said, all bearers of Bolshevism were to be executed with Jews who were among those who were active in carrying on the flag of Bolshevism, isn't that what he told you?
AThat if necessary they would have to be executed.
QWhat would determine the necessity of whether they should or should not be executed?
AWell, that was a very difficult decision.
QWell, how was the decision reached?
AIt was the commando leaders with any such case.
QAnd how would they decide it?
AI personally, Your Honor?
QHow would the commander of the commando decide whether a certain number of Jews were to be executed or not?
AI don't think that I can answer this question so very generally.
QYes, you can, yes, you can.
AThat depends on the local condition, accordingly.
QHermann would have to decide whether to execute a certain number of Jews, didn't he? One-hundred Jews were brought before him, he knows of the one-hundred Jews, he must decide whether they were to be executed or not, How does he decide?
AI don't know, your Honor.
QYes, you do, You were right there with the unit, and the unit was never separated. You were the Senior Officer in command, and if you are a man of intelligence, you knew how Hermann finally decided whether to execute or not to execute; either you knew, or you are trying to make us believe you are an ignoramus, which you certainly do not appear to be.
AWell, Your Honor, how can I say what kind of decision Herrmann made.
QBecause you were with him, you were a brother officer, you were in the same mission. You were there for the same purpose, that is the reason?
AYour Honor, if a hundred of Jews were brought before him, I didn't bring them over, then they were brought to him because he had given an order for that, and he would not have given this order to me, but he would have given this to a member of the Department IV. That is why I can not say what he would have done in a theoretical case, because the one-hundred Jews would be brought to him.
QIt is not a theoretical case. It is a natural case in this very incidence of the killing.
AFor me it is theoretical, Your Honor.
QNo, it is not theoretical, you were there. While you were there, while you held the High Office in this commando were there 230 people who were killed in one operation. Now, how did Herrmann come to his conclusion as to whether he should kill these people, and did kill them, how did he arrive at his decision to kill these people?
AI can not say, your Honor.
QWell, do you assume he just did it out of pure whim or comprise, just said, kill these people?
ANo, there was some kind of files which were submitted to him. Maybe something happened in this period which led to this. Maybe he had an order from the Army to do it.
QThen he conducted an investigation, is that what you want to tell us?
AYes, an investigation was carried out by Department IV.
QBefore he ordered an execution, did he always conduct investigations?
AI can not say, I don't know.
QYou were there?
AI was with the Commando Your Honor?
QHow many were executed during the time that you were with the commando?
AI don't know, Your Honor.
QGive us an estimate?
AI could not say it, whatever number would be wrong.
QYou told us here you knew of six or seven executions, is that right?
AYes.
QHow many were killed in each execution.
AI already said, Your Honor ---
QWell, if you knew about an execution, you know generally how many were killed. An execution is not an abstract thing, It is a very tangible material thing?
AYes.
QAll right. How many were executed?
AIt may be that I heard about it, what was told.
QNow don't give us "maybe". It is an actual thing. How did you find out about these executions, and how many were executed?
AI can not say, Your Honor.
QHow many were executed in each execution? Ten?
AI don't know.
QFifteen?
AI don't know.
QHow did you know of the one execution where twenty or thirty were killed. How did you know that?
AThat was the first execution, Your Honor.
QWere you present at that execution?
ANo.
QHow did you know twenty or thirty were killed?
AA lot was said about it in the Commando at the time, because the men were excited about the fact they had to carry out an execution.
QThey talked about it a great deal, did they?
AI beg your pardon? About this first execution, yes, they talked a lot.
QAccording to that you indicate there they had killed these twenty or thirty?
ANo, what I heard about it.
QNow, they did talk a great deal, certainly, and they would have said why they killed those twenty or thirty; what was charged against these twenty or thirty; what did they say as the reason why these twenty or thirty were killed?
AI don't know.
QDid they talk about it?
AYes.
QDid they say they were Jews?
AThey were Jews among them, yes.
QDid they say why these Jews were killed?
ANo.
QDid they give any explanation as to why anybody was killed among these twenty or thirty?
AIt seemed to me at the time that these had some connection with the murdered prisoners who had been found, whom the Bolshevists had left behind; that these were people who had something to do with these incidents.
QThen you did know why they were executed, don't you?
AThat was the conclusion which I drew.
QBut you didn't tell us that when I first asked you, did you?
AYou asked me, Your Honor, whether they told me about why these people were killed.
QAnd you said, no?
AI said, no, yes,
QYes, now you tell us you did know why they were executed. Where did you get your knowledge?
AI just said that this was a conclusion of my own.
QUpon what do you base your conclusion?
AOn the basis of my knowledge.
QAnd what is your knowledge based upon?
AOn the basis of the fact, that one hundred bodies were found in the prison -- pardon me, were found.
QAnd who told you that these twenty or thirty were executed because one-hundred bodies were found there?
ANo one told me that, Your Honor. This is a conclusion I drew myself.
QDid you talk to any men about that?
AThat is possible, yes.
QAll right, and what did they say?
AAbout the question of the motive, I don't know that.
QTell us exactly what did they say about the motive for the killing?
AThe men told me nothing about the motive for the killing.
QYou knew that one-hundred men had been murdered, and then you found out that there were people who were executed. Did you ask any one as to whether these two events were connected with each other in any way?
AI did not know that one-hundred people had been killed, Your Honor.
QHow can you draw a conclusion without having something upon which to base your conclusion?
AYes, as I said. Your Honor, I had heard that five-hundred murdered prisoners, among them German prisoners of war, had been found in the prison.
QYou told us a moment ago it was one-hundred, now you have increased it to five-hundred, which is correct?
APardon me, the translation must have been wrong. I spoke of several hundred.
QHow many is it now? You have given one-hundred, several hundred, and five hundred. How many were there?
AFive-hundred.
QFive-hundred. All right now. Did they tell you that they had executed these twenty or thirty because the five-hundred prisoners who had been murdered?
ANo.
QThen how did you come to that conclusion?
AIt seems to me fairly obvious that the reprisal for the murder of the German prisoners of war had been carried out.
AIt seemed to me fairly obvious that a reprisal for the murders of German prisoners of war had been carried out.
QWell, someone must have said something to that effect. Suppose they were killed because they had done something else? Suppose they had been killed because they were looters? You had to have some facts upon which to draw your conclusion which you have now given us. What fact did you base it upon?
AI could perhaps mention another fact which I have already discussed - that there was great excitement on the part of the German Army among the troops stationed there and that there were excesses on the part of these troops because they found members of this unit brutally murdered in this prison.
QAnd in all this excitement, and in all this talk, no one ever said "We have killed 20 to 30 people because of the murder." Is that what you want us to believe? No one ever made that statement?
AI can not say. In general maybe somebody did.
QWell, then some one did tell you why the executions took place?
AHe wouldn't have had to give this explanation to me.
QWell, you said everybody was talking about them. You did hear someone say that men were executed because of the murders which had occurred in the prison, is that right?
ANo.
QIn all this discussion, in all this excitement, no one ever said why these 20 to 30 had been killed, is that right?
AI cannot remember.
QNow you will have to remember. You heard these people talking about executions, it was the first execution. The men were quite disturbed over the fact that they had to conduct these executions, shooting down defenseless people. The Army was tremendously excited about it, everyone was talking about these executions. Now, in all this talk no one said why these 20 to 30 were killed? You want us to believe that?
APerhaps they didn't talk about it because it seemed obvious that it was in connection with the murder of German soldiers.
QWas it so obvious that you immediately came to the conclusion right on the spot that that's the reason why they were shot?
AIt was pretty close, yes.
QDid you, right at the time it happened, know that that was the reason?
AI don't quite get the question.
QYou say that it was so obvious why these men were killed that, therefore, it wasn't necessary to make any inquiry. Did you know right at the time of the execution why these 20 or 30 were killed?
AI heard about this execution in Tarnopol afterwards, Your Honor.
QDid you when you first heard about it immediately know that that was the reason the men were executed?
AFor me it seemed obvious, yes.
QThen when I asked you just 15 minutes ago why these men were killed, why didn't you immediately give that answer instead of requiring about 15 to 20 minutes of talking back and forth to have you give what to you was so obvious immediately when you heard about the execution? Why didn't you tell us that at once?
AYour Honor, I was first asked by you whether I have heard.
QI asked you if you knew why these men were executed and you said no, didn't I?
AI think you asked me what I was told and thereupon I told you what I assumed at that time.
QMiss Gross, will you please go back in your notes if you can and read to us the first part of the interrogation, when the witness was being questioned as to why these individuals were executed. Were you here at that time?
(Reporter indicates "no")
THE PRESIDENT:No, it was before that. And who was the reporter proceeding you, Gallagher?
Would you please have call Mr. Gallagher and tell him what we are seeking and whether he can find it in his notes?
QWhat did your work consist of with Einsatzkommando IV-B?
AI was expert, that is, I was responsible for the SD work.
QAnd what did the SD work consist of?
AI had to gather extensive information about all spheres of public life in the area in which we were stationed and to report about it.
QYou were to gather intelligence, weren't you?
AIntelligence about the situation in the domestic life - that is, economics, administration, etc.
AYou had to make reports on conditions among the population?
AYes, sir.
QNow among the population there were many who were hostile to the Germans, weren't there?
AYes.
QThere were Partisans, there were saboteurs, and there were looters, and there were bearers of Bolshevism?
AYes. And all these were scheduled for execution when it was determined that they were such?
AWell, yes.
QYes. So, therefore, you had to make reports on the potential enemies of the German forces?
ANo, not that.
QWell, why not?
ABecause that was the police executive mission to deal with all questions which concerned the enemy. All such questions were already handled by the police in Germany and the same was done in the assignment.
QYou were liaison officer with the Army, too, weren't you?
AYes, with the 49th Mountain Corps.
QAnd you conferred with them on intelligence, didn't you?
AI only functioned as liaison officer once. And, at that time I conferred with G-2 of the Army.
QAnd what is G-2 of the Army doing? It gathers intelligence with regard to the enemy, doesn't it?
AYes.
QSo, therefore, you had to report on the forces which were opposed to the German Army, didn't you?
ANo, Your Honor, this is the way it is. The "Barbarossa" order, which was the basic order and it has already been cited here, had ordered that the liaison from the Einsatzkommandos to the Army would run via G-2. That was the man who was the liaison agency of the Army.
QWhen you did this work in Germany you prepared yourself for your activities in Russia, is that correct?
AIn what field prepared myself - in what field?
QWhen you were in Russia you did the same kind of work which you did in Germany - SD work?
AYes.
QAnd that included counter-intelligence, did it not?
ANo, not at that time any more. Counter-intelligence, if I remember correctly, since 1938 or the beginning of 1939 was taken away from the SD completely.
QSo you were trained in counter-intelligence work, weren't you?
ASpecifically I was only informed about the field of plant security, not about the entire counter-intelligence field. The SD intelligence was only of an informational nature, not connected with police or executive missions. Police prosecution of sabotage and espionage, which are the main components of counter-intelligence, were completely in the hands of the State Police from the very beginning.
QBy intelligence is meant all information appertaining to the enemy which may be of assistance to ones own forces. That's right, isn't it?
AI do not know, Your Honor, I can only speak of what we called SD work. That's what I did in the assignment. SD work means that I would have to gather intelligence about the situation in the various domestic spheres within the indigenous population, that is, Russian population - questions of law, administration, culture, science, and economics, especially economic problems were uppermost during the advance in Russia.
QWhen executions occurred there was bound to be some reaction among the population, wasn't there?
AIt can be assumed theoretically but I never received any report about that. I was never able to determine that.
QYou hastened to exclude yourself before the question was put to you. I only asked you whether when an execution occurred if there wasn't some reaction among the population to it?
AThat depended on two matters, Your Honor. First of all how the execution was carried out. I am speaking theoretically ' whether there was the possibility that the large population learned about it. And, second the question of information service. If such a reaction existed on the part of the population it doesn't mean that I heard about it or had to hear about it.
QYou are very anxious to tell us that you knew nothing about it and the question hasn't been put to you.
ANo, I am saying, your Honor, during the time that I was in this assignment I did not know of any reaction of the people to these executions or, rather, I was not able to determine any such reaction. I heard nothing about this through my intelligence channels.
QBefore 4-B marched into a town and seized the Jews and executed them it would be known in the town if it wasn't too large a place, wouldn't it?
AOne would have to assume that, yes.
QAnd then when you came to write up your report on the morale of the population you would have to make some reference to the fact that there was terror and fright in the town because of the execution, wouldn't you?
AWell, your Honor, I didn't hear about the fact that Kommando 4-B marched into a town and then seized the Jews.
QWere you in the town of K-l-o-c-z-o-w?
AYes, Kloczow.
QWell, however it is pronounced.
AI went through Kloczow when we advanced.
QWhat happened in that town? How many did 4-B kill in that town?
AI cannot say, your Honor.
QWell, was it a large number of a small number?
AI didn't spend any time in Kloczow. I drove through it.
QWell you spent as long a time as the Kommando spent in there. How many did the Kommando kill in Kloczow?
AIn Kloczow?
QYes, how many did the Kommando kill in Kloczow?
AI do not know. I assume that they killed none because I think I read in some situation report that the group staff of Einsatzgruppen C was active in Kloczow. And in this connection it is mentioned that the Kommando 4-B - I hope I am repeating this correctly - that is had passed by Kloczow.
If I understand this expression correctly in the report then this refers to the fact that Kloczow was by-passed by the forces of Kommando 4-B or rather that Kommando 4-B searched the town of Kloczow for material left behind by the Bolchivists.
QYou are trying to adjust your explanation to the report. I want you to tell me what you know that 4-B did in Kloczow.
AI can't tell you anything about that, your Honor.
QDid the group staff conduct any executions in Kloczow?
AI do not know. I just referred to the group staff because I saw this incident in the report. When I went through Kloczow I did not come into contact with the group staff. The Group staff must have come to Kloczow after the Kommando because the group staff was still in Lemberg at that time.
QWhat did 4-B do in Kloczow?
AI can only tell you according to the situation report which I just quoted.
QDon't tell me about the situation report. I want you to tell me what you know. I can read the situation report. What did you do in Kloczow?
AI drove through Kloczow, entered at one end and drove out the other --
QAnd what did the Kommando do in Kloczow?
AI do not know.
QWell you were with the Kommando, weren't you?
AWith the last vehicle of the Kommando which had left Lemberg I drove through Kloczow.
QDidn't the Kommando stop at all?
AAccording to what I read in the situation report I must assume that parts of the Kommando did stop there.
QAnd what did they do? What did they do when they stopped there?
AI can only judge this according to the situation report.
QWhat did you do in Kloczow?
AI do not know. I wasn't there.
QWell you were in Kloczow.
AI drove through your Honor.
QThe Kommando always remained intact did it not?
AOn the march it often fell apart. That was unavoidable and there were interruptions of hours between various parts so that parts would come up later. I just want to give you an example, When we crossed the Djnepr River in order to get near the bridge there was a distance of 4 kilometers and I needed ten hours for this while others immediately able to cross the bridge.
QDidn't you tell us in the early part of your direct examination that 4-B was a unit which did not separate?
AI said that in view of the distribution into sub-kommandos, your Honor.
QWell, now after you went through Kloczow you say that part of the Kommando remained there and that you went straight on, is that right?
ANo. That's not the way it was. Your Honor.
QWell, tell us just what happened in Kloczow? Did any part of your Kommando remain after you went through?
ANo.
QThen you remained with the Kommando all the time it was in Kloczow?
AYour Honor, may I briefly describe this?
QPlease tell me if you remained with the Kommando all the time it was in Kloczow?
AParts of the Kommando came through Kloczow before me. That is to say the first parts must have come through Kloczow about a day before me. The advance took place in groups and I came with the last few vehicles.
QThen 4-B did separate occasionally, didn't it?
AI did not exclude, your Honor, that during the advance because the conditions of War made it necessary that the Kommando would separate temporarily for hours or days.
But it was not so - -
QSo it was possible for part of this Kommando to have performed executions in Kloczow before you arrived, wasn't it?
ATheoretically this would have been possible if such a thing had been ordered by the Kommando leader.
QAnd there were times when parts of this unit would be separated for hours and some times for days, is that what you tell us now?
AYes.
QSo, this is - - -
AFor hours or one day.
QWell, you said days just a moment ago, didn't you? Hours and days. Did you say that?
AYes, but not many days.
QHow many days?
AOne or two.
QWell, days would be more than one day, wouldn't it?
AYes, one or two days.
QWell, when you say days you mean more than one day, don't you?
AYes.
QSo, therefore, you didn't tell us the truth when you said in the very early part of your examination that the unit never separated, did you?
AI think I still said the truth because, if I may repeat my words as I think I remember them, this does not exclude the fact that small parts of the Kommando in order to carry out definite missions were briefly or temporarily separated from the Kommando.
QYes, you adjust your answer according to the particular situation. At the time you were describing this other situation it was to your benefit to say that the unit did not separate. Now, since you assume it will be to your benefit to say that it does separate, you said it did separate. That's the way you are answering these questions, isn't it?
ANo, one does not exclude the other. The situation has been that it was reported that other Kommandos were separated into two or three sub-Kommandos which operated independently, that is, one Kommando was hundreds of kilometers away from another Kommando. This was not the case in our Kommando. We were not separated that way.
QYou were in charge of an advance Kommando on two occasions weren't you?
AYes, your Honor.
QAnd what did you do when you were in charge of this advance Kommando?
AI tried to join the combat troop as quickly as possible or rather to arrive at the new garrison as quickly as possible.
QHow many men did you have?
AAbout six to eight men, including myself.
QWhen you were in charge of this group you were prepared to meet any situation weren't you?
AYes, I was prepared. Whether my forces would have sufficed I do not know.
QIf you met Partisans you would fight them, wouldn't you?
AIf they had forced me to fight, of course, but for my part I wouldn't have looked for it with the strength of 8 men.
QWell, suppose your men gained knowledge that a group of Partisans was in the town, not a large group, would you try to locate them?
ANo, not as a leader of an advance Kommando with 8 men.
QWell, suppose you learned there were four Partisans in a town, and they were in a house, would you send your eight men there and try to capture them?
ANo.
QSuppose you had learned there were some saboteurs who were about to set fire to some houses, four people. Would you go and try to arrest them?
AMy own house in which I was staying?
QNo, a house in the town. They were saboteurs and they assumed you were going to take over this house for your quarters and they were going to burn it. Would you go and arrest them?
AI can't decide this generally.
QWell, no this isn't general. This is a specific question. You are marching through a town with six to eight men and you learn that there are some saboteurs contrary to German regulations and against the German forces and you know they are going to blow up a house and you know where these four men are. Would you go and arrest them?
ANo.