also extended to commerce and industry by which every property of minorities was equally effected, we helped each other and the rise of my own firm in these difficult years I do ascribe to this circumstance. I never noticed any trace to support Goebbels' propaganda in what it said about the Jews. position and still you settled in Germany? speech in which he announced that because of the continuous conflicts with ethnic Germans abroad agreements would have to be made once and for all with States in which these Germans were living in order to bring all Germans into one area. After a short time negotiators from Germany arrived and with the aid of the German ambassador they started negotia tions to this effect with the government concerned.
Q Were you in agreement with this resettlement? one else and I didn't want to go to Germany - Germany was strange to me.
Q. But then you did resettle, and even were active in this resettlement?
A. Yes, when the rumor turned out to be the truth, that on the basis of the negotiations between the Soviet Union and Estonia and Latvia the occupation of these countries by the Bolshevists was imminent, I had no other choice, and the more so as thus, my existence now, my firm would be dissolved. Latvia also demanded that with this intended resettlement the minority statute for the Germans would be considered as revoked, since all Germans had to leave the country. I was now asked as a co-worker of the German community to make an account of the economic values, which were to be settled and I did this with a commission in the German Legation.
Q. Was the resettlement then a compulsory one in your opinion?
A. It was not a compulsory one as far as the treaty is concerned which was signed on the 30th of October, 1939, between the two states, for no one was herded into ships by Rifles, but it left us no choice insofar as the treaty of assistance, concluded between the Soviet Union and Latvia, opened the country to Bolshevism, and on the other side the treaty about the resettlement, at the request of the Latvian Government, provided that every German was considered outlawed because he belonged to the German minority. Thus there could be no such thing as German property any longer, apart from all other considerations.
Q. What was your activity during this resettlement?
A. On the basis of my exact knowledge of the economy I had to advise in the restitution of the German property of such firms as estates, companies, insurance, etc., and to see to it that the resettlers would be resettled in Germany with a legal claim and with the prerequisites mentioned in the treaty, to be compensated for the property they had left behind.
Q. How long did you do this work, and when did you yourself resettle?
A. I did this work for about a month. I had to conclude all the business affairs in my firm, and in the middle of November, 1939, I myself resettled, I had been informed that the resettlers who had already left had been housed in various towns, but only temporarily, and as refugees, and that it was necessary to care for them from an economic viewpoint, because the competence of the German Office for the Repatriation of Ethnic Germans, which was responsible for the resettlement, had ceased to be effective at the German border, and no one knew his way around the chaos of the directives which contradicted each other.
Q. Thus, do you think that the Baltic Germans left their country voluntarily, or not?
A. They did not leave voluntarily because they fled from Bolshevism which was approaching, and because of the fact that their fate was decreed by treaties without their being asked about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Where did you go to, Witness? I don't think that you have told us.
THE PRESIDENT: Your Honor, I went to Posen.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. Very well. Did you go there because you chose that place, or did this organization for resettlement indicate where you were to go?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it was prescribed exactly who was to go where.
THE PRESIDENT: I see.
THE WITNESS: The population of Riga had to go to Posen. There was no free choice of where one wanted to live.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, you said that you resettled to Posen. Can you say on the basis of what directives the Baltic Germans were sent to Posen?
A. I learned about this later, that Himmler, as the Commissar for the Strengthening of Germanism, had issued a certain decree according to which the various people were to be transported on trucks, I was asked to work along in an advisory capacity at a Baltic agency since I had a lot of economic information at my disposal which I had learned in the brief activity at home, and in order to help take care of the economic interests of my fellow Baltics who, like myself, did not know the conditions inside Germany, and to advise them on this.
Q. was this agency an institution of the Party or of the State?
A. No, this advisory gency was founded by the r esettlers themselves, On the part of the State there were very many organizations who were all competent for us in some way, and we were only able to find cur way through them very slowly. Because of these many various agencies, an agency for the Baltics was not provided, and apart from a few Reich agencies, they put obstacles in its way.
Q. Witness, will you please tell the Tribunal what jobs t is advisory agency had in detail.
A. The jobs were as follows: A thorough investigation of the economic problems of the resettlers had not been possible in the homeland because time was short. This was done subsequently. The second job was that of getting hold of the property of the resettlers, that is about more than fifty shiploads of cattle and all sorts of property, machines, to help them in transporting this matter, and to see that they were recompensated for any damage for which the Reich was responsible. As the third job I must list the address register; as the fourth, a general human advisory council, and finally the protection of the funds of the German Association in Estonia and Latvia and of the cultural property we had brought along.
Q. what was the personnel composition of this agency; were there any Reich Germans in it?
A. No Reich German participated, and it was composed of businessmen, industrialists, craftsmen and employees who had already worked on this resettlement problem in the homeland.
Q. How were you received in the new home?
A. while the Office for the Repatriation of Ethnic Germans had done everything in order to relieve the fate of the homeless people, the competent district leader received us with a speech in which he told us that he would drive our ideas of mastery out of us and he would teach us National Socialism, which he didn't achieve though in the sense in which he indicated, but he enlightened us in good time, and thus conditioned our actions by what he said.
Q. Did you expect such a reception personally?
A. In no sense. I developed a conflict under which many decent Germans suffered; on the one hand, tohelp the old Fatherland in its most serious war, and, on the other hand, to have to refuse its ideology in most essential points.
Q. Did these events change your attitude towards National Socialism?
A. It confirmed my opinion that good and decent people want more things, the more I saw, that there were enough people of my own circle and old National Socialists, drew the same conclusion. But this resulted in the fact that I became self-absorbed, especially when I established the fact that neither I nor myself could change anything in the matters as they existed.
THE PRESIDENT: That answer is a little involved, Dr. Ratz. Could he state it more succinctly? Your question was very relevant. The answer seemed to have rambled somewhat. If he could put that a little more briefly and a little more objectively.
Q. (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, you heard what my question said.
It said whether through the events which you experienced at the time the resettlement was accomplished your attitude towards National Socialism changed any?
A. Well, it changed in a very essential point. I was able to see how that there was no concern about individual phenomenon within the people but that everything had to be brought on a common denominator which, in my opinion at the time, had to bring about a lower and not a higher level.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you say that your conclusion was that National Socialism was not genuinely and sincerely interested in the individual but was interested more in an ideological program involving munbers which did not effect or did not concern itself with the individual?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. The general policy of making everything uniform in all variations had the final goal of making everything equal, and this was completely incomprehensible to me, which I had not expected.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, please.
BY DR. RATZ:
Q. You said before that you could not change anything in the development as it existed and that, therefore, you became introverted to a largo degree. Could you work undistrubed in your advisory agency?
A. No, In the middle of December, 1939, Himmler made an appearance in Poson in order to inspect his agencies. He was immediately informed about the existence of our own advisory agency. He decreed its dissolution. The head of this department for the repatriation of ethnic Germans who was escorting him - succeeded in having this decree revoked by suggesting that he would take over this advisory agency in its entirety, and I must frankly admit, we had to be grateful and happy about this at the moment, because this solution helped many people for now their material interests could be taken care of to an even greater extent, by the fellow-country men
Q. Did the fact that this agency was taken over into the Office for the Repatriation of Ethnic Germans change anything in the character of your activity or the type of the agency?
A. No, it regained an advisory agency, had no powers, whatsoever and merely received a new designation. It was as follows: Office for the Repatriation of Ethnic Germsns, Advising Resettlers in the District of Poson. I no longer was the representative of this agency for advising resettlers, since the reorganization was carried out according to German models I received a per diem salary of 12 marks and continued to recieve this salary until the end of the war uninterruptedly, even after I was put on an emergency war status for the RSHA. I had no contract. Everything continued as before, apart from the 1 letterhead which was of good use to us, and apart from the fact that in March of the coming year when I reported to the Army this was answered by deferring mo, against which I protested without success.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, did they pay you even when you weren't working at that job?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor; until the end of the war.
THE PRESIDENT: What did they do, just forget you were on the payroll and continue to pay you even though you weren't working?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, in this emergency war status there are two types. The first type of emergency war service was with a position and one was without a position. The Emergency war service with a position includes the full salary, but on the service without a position, or without a contract, the agency with whom I worked thus far had to continue my salary.
I personally was always interested in not changing my emergency war status with the RSHA, into the other type, because this would have been equivalent to the position of an employee, and I would have had no prospect of ever getting out of this emergency war status.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (BY Dr. Ratz) Witness, if I understood you correctly, you said that your emergency war orders to the RSHA was a service without contract. This would mean then that your contract thus far with the resettlers agency continued?
A. Yes.
Q. And thus this is the reason that this agency continued to pay your salary until the end of the war, is that right?
A. Yes, Beyond that, during the time of my furlough, I had to work in this agency, and I always worked there again.
Exhibit 139, page 39 of the German text, page 22 of the English.
MR. HORLICIK-HOCHWALD: Your Honors, this document starts on page 22 of the English.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you.
DR. RATZ: It says there: SS Untersturmfuehrer von Radetzky was admitted to the SS Schutzstaffel by the Reichsfuehrer SS personally at the occasion of his visit in Posen on the 12th or 13th of December, and was promoted to SS Untersturmfuehrer.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Your Honors, the quote is on page 26 under the heading of page 4 of the original.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see it now. BY DR. RATZ: the dissolution of this Advisory Agency for Baltic Germans. After, however, the Director of the Office for the Repatriation for Ethnic Germans had incorporated this agency into his office, Himmler gave the order to take the employees of this advisory agency into the SS and at the same time to express a recognition of the services already rendered for the resettling work. These negotiations were supposed to have lasted for two whole days while Himmler was in Posen, since in any case he did not want to see this advisory agency. That's how I suddenly got into the SS. I neither made an application for admission nor was I asked about it.
Q Could you at that time object to being taken into the SS?
Q How did you get into uniform? put in uniform. At this occasion I heard the expression "wearer of the uniform" for the first time. I was told I was to consider myself as such and that I would incur no obligation.
At this occasion I wore the uniform for the first time. oath for the SS or did you obligate yourself to do any duty for the SS? such obligations or myself nor did I take an oath. I did not have to show any so-called proof of my Aryan descent, did not have to ask for any marriage permission, did not have to leave the church, did not have to join the Lebensborn, did not have to pay any membership fees and never attended a rally of the SS. Therefore, I, could never assume, on my part, that my membership in the SS was anything but a nominal one. since the conditions for such a membership were not met. circumstance to be especially careful, since I never contested a formal membership. This would be absurd, but I don't see why I should be called to account today for obligations which to avoid I never had the rights to.
Q Witness, I come to a new point: When did you come to Schmiedeberg? old homeland, where I was employed for the subsequent resettlement of the Baltics, when I had come back frommy furlough, an order by the school for Border Police in Pretzsch called no to duty, and I had to comply with this order within 24 hours. This was in the middle of May. about your mission?
this was a war assignment which would be concluded by December at the latest. I was not told anything further.
Q As what were you being called to duty for? office for the repatriation of ethnic Germans, since December of the year 1940, I was not even allowed to wear any insignia of rank and did not wear any such. Book III-C, page 45 of the German text. It is Document NO-4771 (i), Exhibit 139.
THE PRESIDENT: Page 22?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: It starts on page 22 but Dr. Ratz wants to read from a later date, 1 will try to get the page.
INTERPRETED: The letter "i" is on page 29, your Honor.
DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: It is on page 29, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. There it says, "Under cancellation of his assignment to the BdS Ukraine, the SS Sturmbannfuehrer (NDV) Waldemar von Radetzky was transferred." Will you the Tribunal what the initials "NDV" mean?
Q Who put you on such p status? of personnel for the performing of missions of special state political importance on 15 October 1938. This status was immediately announced by the regional office, by the Mayor of the City of Posen, who was competent according to an announcement which said that government agencies could demand emergency service. This was on the 8th of July 1939. During my war emergency status in May 1941 I was busy with the advisory agency for Baltic Germans in Posen.
this emergency status or of evading it?
Q What effect did this have? order to be drafted which had to be complied with. Whoever refused to comply with this had to expect the same consequences as one who would have refused to do any war service. The compulsion of this war emergency status can be seen from the fact that this was announce, even though the office for the repatriation of ethnic Germans, who had incorporated the advisory agency for resettlers, had deferred me.
Q Would you please explain what the designation "UK" means, to be deferred? man power and means that the person concerned can not be drafted for the army. became a member of the SD? of the SD, either in full time capacity or in an honorary capacity. The war emergency status merely started an activity in the SD and this activity had to last as long as this status was effective.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ratz, would you went to suspend now for the afternoon recess? The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken) Court No. II, Case No. IX.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, we spoke of your war emergency status. Could you on such a status, object to your call to report to Schmiedeberg? on that basis, I came under the jurisdiction of the Chief of the RSHA and apart from that I was subordinated to the SS and Police court. As I have already said, war emergency service had the same effect as a military draft. Blobel on the 19th of October, 1947, -- it is in the transcript, German text page 1751 -- in connection with your own person, witness, the question was raised whether it was true that those on a war emergency status were supposed only to serve in the Reich Security Main Office, but they would not serve in an Einsatzgruppe. Would you please comment on this? in the RSHA and not for service in the Einsatzgruppe. I would like to clarify this again. The war emergency status is imposed by the Department I, Personnel Department of RSHA, for service in the Einsatzkommandos. Only based on the war emergency status could I begin my activity in the SK 4A. Until the end of my activity in the SK 4A and after that, up to the end of my activity in the Reich Security Main Office, I was on this war emergency status.
Q When did you first learn of your war emergency status?
AAbout two weeks after I had arrived in Schmiedeberg. I received a temporary registration card, in which my war emergency service for the Department I of the RSHA was explained, and a certain Hauptsturmfuehrer Ulrich in Schmiedeberg informed me that I, in accordance with my recruitment, was due to have war emergency status for the Reich Security Main Office and would have to take part regularly in military training.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
and did you also receive a police training? consisted of exercises and weapons training and than regularly physical exercises and games. ever discussed at that time?
Q Witness, we are now coming to the SK 4A. When did you join the SK 4A? of June, 1941.
Q Who was the chief of SK 4A? often mentioned here, with Streckenbach or in Berlin? learn anything about the discussions having taken place, except here in Nurnberg.
Q What ware you told when you were detailed to the SK 4A? as expert on the country. Furthermore, I had to take part in a discussion at which general directives for reporting were given and I had such a discussion with an officer of the Office VI of the RSHA. reporting? Dept III on the Staff of Einsatzgruppe C, in Schmiedeberg at the beginning of our activities. The Departmental Chiefs were present and were informed about the character of their futura work. It was explicitly pointed out that the Departmental Experts for reporting would work in their own sphere of activities.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD : If the Tribunal please, it seems inadmissible Court No. II, Case No. IX.
that the witness testifies to facts which he does not know. He told the Tribunal very explicitly that he did not know a thing about these meetings in Schmiedeberg, but now he is going into great detail in order to explain to the Tribunal what happened there.
THE PRESIDENT: The observation is entirely a logical one. What do you have to say to that, Dr. Ratz?
DR. RATZ: I believe that the witness is testifying from his own experience, and he has said this remark only concerns the name of this chief who was discussed, Hennicke, of whom I shall submit an affidavit and whose name the witness probably did not know at the time.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, if Dr. Ratz has some proof for these facts from Hennicke it seems to be entirely immaterial that the witness testifies what Hennicke told him here in the jail or what are the contents of the affidavit. The affidavit is the proof before the Tribunal, but what the witness says he heard here from Hennecke generally, meanwhile, after the trial here started, is no proof at all, no proof whatsoever. An affidavit of Hennecke is available. The witness is available for cross-examination, but I do not think that this is the proper subject for the interrogation of a third person, in this case, the defendant, who does not know anything from his own knowledge about this fact.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, it is here a matter of two discussions. One is the discussion with Streckenbach and one is the discussion with Hennecke. As for the discussion with Hennecke, the witness can tell us about it from his own experience. I should like to ask the witness whether he himself can state facts about this discussion according to his own experience or only by way of the affidavit, Witness, will you please comment on this?
THE WITNESS: I answered your question whether I took part in any discussions with Streckenbach or in Berlin, by saying that I did not take part in these discussions. I further went on to say that I took part in other discussions, for instance, one discussion concerning Court No. II, Case No. IX.
reports and reporting and then another discussion with an officer from Office VI. In those days I was new and I do not know the names of these people who had these discussions, but I made sure that this discussion about reporting was presided over by Hennecke at the time in Schmiedeberg and therefore I said, "As I know now."
Q (By Dr. Ratz) But you know from your own memory about this discussion? don't know whether it was Hennicke or somebody else from my recollection of that time, but when I attempted to clarify matters now, I found out that Hennicke must have actually preside over the discussion then.
Q A further question. What special subjects did these reports include? education, theatres, religion, and so on.
Q How were the reports actually issued?
A The work was of a reporting nature. First, the material for the reports had to be found. This was done by contacting the population and by looking for the sources for reports. Then reports were made out of this material. Responsible for this were the departmental experts of Office III,
Q To whom did these reports go?
A That depended. They went to the Chief III who was with the Staff of the Einsatzgruppe.
Q Was executive activity mentioned in these reports? and they were issued by experts, that is, the Departmental Experts IV, but I had nothing to do with that, because I was Departmental Expert III, time?
Q When did you leave Schmiedeberg and where did you go? went via Liegnitz, Gleiwitz, Cracow, to Rubirshow Here, Blobel, who had left the kommando meanwhile, rejoined it and with one part of the kommando he went to Sokal, while the remainder, including myself, followed him.
Q Did you on that occasion have discussions with Blobel? that ruthless security measures against Communist functionaries had been ordered by the Fuehrer, I asked that my activity to be outlined because I did not want to have nothing to do with this kind of police task. When this order was proclaimed, Blobel said that in this, Jewry had to be regarded as the essential bearer of Bolshevism. Healso said that when the security of the unit made it necessary, collective measures were possible too, however, these could only be ordered by the battalion commander or a higher-ranking officer. Blobel then ordered me, after I had objected to deal with the documents and utilize them for my reports for the SD as the Departmental Chief of Office III and to report to him and to the Einsatzgruppe about Ukrainian affairs. Further directives I did not receive from him concerning this activity. He only said that I would not be employed in the same manner as all the other officers of the commando as I did not fulfill the necessary conditions.
Q What conditions were these? of the kommandos? SD insignia, the distinction perhaps be comes most evident from the fact that I received a daily payment of One Mark Twenty, that is the price of a pack of cigarettes, while a Hauptsturmfuehrer or one of the officers of the RSHA in those days received Twelve Marks for his personal expenses. That is about ten times as much.
Q You said, "apart from a few external insignia." Did you wear SD insignia on your sleeve, or did you not? the course of time?
A No, no, and I had to use my own money occasionally. Later I received 75 Marks on one occasion when I was no longer in a position to pay my debts at the Officers Club. officer in the SK 4A?
A No, no. I was and I remained under war emergency status. I brought along my uniform from the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle. Neither the uniform nor the rank would give any cause to think that I was an officer in the Security Police and SD. For this, other conditions were necessary; by that I mean, membership and previous training. executions? fact that I had an officer's rank did not alter this fact. My executive power did not go beyond my field of activities. This field of activities was the field of interpreting and reporting, and, later on, I became a liaison officer, as well. commander of SK 4A, Blobel, of 6 June 1947. It is contained in Document Book I, page 129 of the English text, page 163 of the German text, No 3824, Exhibit 31, and it says:
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I do think that Dr. Ratz will quote from para. 9, which is on the top of page 132.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) There it says, and I quote: "During the period of my absence the kommando was taken over by Dr. Rasch, Hauptsturmfuehrer Waldemar von Radetzky and Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Beyerp and under their direction a jumber of mass executions took place too." I now ask you, Witness, were you appointed by Blobel as his deputy or were you given the leadership of SK 4a in any form? ing this question when he was on the witness stand and he said that I was not his deputy, just as little as, according to my knowledge, Dr.
Rasch and Dr. Beyer were his deputies, and I wasn't either.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ratz, will you refresh my memory? Perhaps my colleagues recall it, but at the moment I don't recall whether the Defendant Blobel was questioned by you on this statement of his that the present defendant von Radetzky conducted mass executions.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I asked the Defendant Blobel on the 29th of October in detail about this matter. This is on page 1660 of the German transcript and it goes on to page 1667.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, can you give us the reference in the English transcript?