We have obtained a short affidavit to this effect from the witness and we have also obtained other of these little books of other months which we will submit to the Tribunal as soon as we have the expert opinion on the other exhibits ready.
THE PRESIDENT: But anything about the Sergeant?
MR. HOCHWALD: The Prosecution does not desire to put in the negative of the Sergeant in evidence and I personally do think that cannot shed very much light on the case by producing a second negative. Of course, if the Tribunal desires to have this negative I shall make arrangements that the same representative who received from Mr. Schreyer the little books will also obtain for the Tribunal the negative of the Sergeant.
THE PRESIDENT: Does defense desire the negatives of the picture of the Sergeant?
DR. KRAUSE: I would like to ask for it now, yes. Your Honor, I just heard that the witness Schreyer, with the permission of the Tribunal, was visited by one of the members of the Prosecution and again interrogated.
DR. HOCHWALD: That was not what I said, your Honor. With the permission of the Tribunal a representative of the Tribunal visited Mrs. Scheyer asking her for the handing over of the little books which contained the different orders for December.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this is all immaterial any way, it doesn't make any difference who visits Schreyer. Anyone can talk to Schreyer. In the American forces there is liberty and anyone can talk anyone else. A representative of the Prosecution can go and talk to Schreyer, defense counsel can talk to Schreyer. She may even talk to her divorced husband. She can talk to anybody. She is free. So we are using a lot of talk here about something which is of no consequence at all. Now, to get down to the real issue of the matter, these letters which you have asked about have not come to the Tribunal, so either the Prosecution or the Defense will see that Schreyer hands over these letters if she still has them, if she preserved the letters sent by her husband, with regard to the negatives of the sergeant, if you have someone up there defense counsel who can get these negatives and can certify the negatives are properly preserved you can have that done or you can ask Mr. Hochwald to have his representative there do so, so there will be no more confusion, no more mystery and no misdirection.
DR. KRAUSE: I beg your pardon. I do not want to take up the time of the Tribunal unnecessarily about this. I only want to give one explanation. According to the information which I received, which possibly might not be correct, at Frau Schreyer's a search of her apartment is supposed to have taken place. Although Frau Schreyer is a witness of the defense I purposely kept away and since her examination here I have not approached her because it way my opinion that the points which the Tribunal considered still needed to be clarified could only be clarified by the Tribunal itself. Now if any further measures were taken concerning Frau Schreyer I only ask the Tribunal to tell me about the results of these measures.
THE PRESIDENT: Before Frau Schreyer appeared here in court I believe that the Tribunal indicated that she was not to talk to anyone about the case. But, she has now appeared in court and testified and, therefore, there is no injunction upon anyone not to talk to anyone else, I am refer ring to both witnesses, the original withess and the assistant.
Now the Tribunal is not aware of what has happened since the assistant appeared here in court. We do know that the letters which were discussed have not been presented to the Tribunal. We would suggest that you talk to Mr. Hochwald and between both of you arrange to obtain everything that you believe you need in the further clarification of this issue regarding the picture of the defendant Haensch.
DR. KRAUSE: Yes, Sir. Thank you, Your Honor. That will be sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. lows: BY JUDGE SPEIGHT:
Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me: pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated. BY DR. BELZER for the Defendant Mathias Graf:
Q.- Your Honor, I have special reasons to ask the Tribunal to give instructions that no photographs be taken of the witness here. Until now with the assistance of the Prosecution and the Marshal I have been able to avoid it so far but I now ask the Tribunal to give special instructions on behalf of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Although this is a very unusual request that an attractive woman does not like to be photographed. Since you make that request in behalf of the witness the Tribunal will be glad to see to it that your request is carried out. So, the photographers in the courtroom will please not take a picture of the present witness.
DR. BELZER: Thank you, very much, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: That doesn't mean that the photographer may now go home and forget about his work. We will do other work. He will do other work. BY DR. BEIZER:
Q.- May I ask the witness to speak slowly into the microphone in answering the questions I put; you are not to answer Immediately but let a little time elapse for my question to be translated by the interpreters first.
A.- Frau Franziska Reimers.
Q.- When and where were you born?
A.- I was born on 3 January 1911 in Kortiska, District Saporosje, in the Southern Ukraine.
Q.- Where are you living now?
A.- In Bonn on the Rhine.
Q.- Please tell the Tribunal briefly about your career, about your life until the beginning of the German-Russian War.
A.- On 3 January 1911 in Kortiska, District Saporosje, I was born in the Southern Ukraine. My father was a carpenter, and originally belonged to the Dutchmen who at the time of Catharine the Great settled in southern Ukraine. In my native town I graduated from all German Schools the German elementary s chool, intermediate school, and high school, and after that four semesters at the Ukrainina University in Odessa, After terminating my studies I married the land-owner Cornelius Reimers. He also was a high school teacher for mathematics and physics. After marrying in the year 1930 we were both moved into the country in order to be active as teachers there. Since my husband was of bourgeois origin the Soviets never treated him very gently and he had a lot of trouble with them. These difficulties culminated in his arrest on 4 November 1937 by the Russian G.P.U. or the NKWD; they transported him to Siberia as I was told he was expelled there.
I have never heard from him since. I myself had to stop working as a teacher. With my child, who was then 2 years of age, I was put into the street. Outside the prison of the GPU I saw so much misery that perforce I could no longer feel any sympathy for this so-called socialism although this had not been the case until then.
Having had quite enough of Bolshevism, of course, I joined those circles who were anti-Communist. When, in the year 1941, on 22 June the war with Germany started, I was called into the NKWD building and they gave me the choice either to leave my child and also to go to Siberia or to help in the intelligence service behind the German lines. Because of fear and worry about my child I accepted this suggestion. On 15 August, 1941, in the general staff of the southern front, Major Tschaikovsky gave me my mission and I had to leave my child alone who was then five years of age while raids and fighting took place.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you indicated to us that you were given certain choices, to do one thing or another, or a third. You said that you were given certain alternatives: You could go to Siberia, or remain. At any rate, you were given three choices. Then you said, "I accepted the suggestion", but you didn't tell us which one of the alternatives you accepted. Please tell us which one you accepted and then relate what happened.
THE WITNESS: Since I knew the methods of the Russian GPU and the NKWD, I knew that if I did not accept the suggestion of working in the intelligence service, then I would never see my native land again.
THE PRESIDENT: Please tell us which suggestion you accepted. What did you decide to do?
THE WITNESS: I decided to accept the suggestion to join the intelligence service behind the German lines.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Proceed, Dr. Belzer.
Q Witness, was there a possibility for an existence in Siberia? Was there a means of making a living or would that have been your undoing? life?
A No. After having walked 500 kilometers towards Saporosje-Uman between Krawoy and Kriwoij-Roc, I was captured by the Germans.
I was taken to a higher commander of the German Wehrmacht and a major interrogated me. The major could understand my worry about my child and my emotional distress and he promised to ask his superior to pardon me. After interrogations which lasted three days, I was brought to Kriwoij-Roc to the Security Service, EK 6.
Q Do you know the defendant Mathias Graf?
Q Where is he sitting?
THE PRESIDENT: The last one to the right as you are facing the defendants' dock, is that correct? Because the last one could be on the other side too, you know?
THE WITNESS: Yes, on the right side.
Q How did you get to know Herr Graf? Please describe the first meeting briefly. taken for a walk of one or two hours by members of the Security Police every day. Sometimes there was one. Sometimes there were two members of the SD. On the 24th of September, or, it might have been the 22nd, I don't know exactly any more now, it happened to be Herr Graf and his comrade Schulze or Schulte or something like that.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Belzer, let's have the date, please, the year. BY DR. BELZER:
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. BELZER:
Q It might have been on the 22nd too, did you say that?
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed. BY DR. BELZER: with Herr Graf? because he was particularly kind towards the Ukrainian population. I would like to give a small example here. When we passed through the streets of Kriwoij-Roc, we saw a Ukrainian woman who was crying bitterly. Herr Graf asked me to ask this woman why she was so deeply upset. I went to the woman and asked "Why are you crying?" She answered to this that her husband had been a miner in the Kriwoij-Roc Iron Ore Mines and had been denounced by the neighbors who said that shortly before the German troops came in he had dynamited the mines. As a result of this the SD had arrested him. Herr Graf talked to this woman in a very kind manner, to which I was not accustomed, by saying she should calm down, because if her husband was innocent, then after the case had been investigated, he certainly would return. These words consoled the women and I was also pleasantly surprised about that.
Q Do you know what happened to this man in the end? he an officer?
A No. At the time I did not know much about the insignia of the German Wehrmacht, but, as far as I can remember, when he was addressed by comrades, he was addressed as Unterscharfuehrer, an NCO.
Q How long did you stay in Kriwoij-Roc? my child was was no longer being shot at by Russian artillery. Then I was promised that, if possible, my child would be taken out of there and again it was Herr Graf who realized my emotional troubles and said he would speak to Standartenfuehrer Kroeger so that they would speed up this matter and I would get my child back as soon as possible.
Q Did you get back your child then? units went towards my home town on the Dnjepr River and I found my child in an air raid shelter where my brother had kept it.
Q Where did you go after Kriwoij-Roc? officials - Herr Graf was among then and I don't know the other people - brought me to Dnjepropetrowsk, again to the Security Service.
Q How long did you remain in Dnjepropetrowsk? Security Service until part of perhaps the entire EK 6 - I don't know which - was transferred to Dnjepropetrowsk and be chance Herr Graf and I met in the corridor of the Security Service building. Then he promised me again to intervene with Standartenfuehrer Kroeger as to whether my living conditions could not be changed, and that they would give me some work to do and that my child would receive medical care.
Q Did you see Herr Graf repeatedly in Dnjepropetrowsk? Russian language and Herr Schulze also and I did that in Kriwoij-Roc. At the same time Herr Graf gave me English lessons to make up for it. I Dnjepropetrowsk these language lessons were continued two or three times a week. Herr Graf?
A None, really. Of course, we only talked about private matters. to tak to the civilian population?
lived with a Ukrainian family. which were supposed to have been carried out by Einsatzkommando 6? with bundles on their back. What happened to these people I could not find out, but when I inquired about this from my superior, at the time in the Department of Agriculture and Food, I was told that the Jews were being resettled. That they were actually shot, I only heard when I came to Germany later on. Russian workers to Germany?
Q.- How did you and Herr Graf get separated again in Russia?
A.- Herr Graf was with his commando in Dnepropetrowsk for only a short while, and I believe for three weeks, something like that, he was transferred to Stalino, over there on the front.
Q.- Did you remain in Russia throughout the entire war?
A.- Yes, until the German troops withdrew in 1943.
Q.- And then?
A.- And then I was evacuated from Russia like all Ethnic Germans.
Q.- Later on, did you meet Herr Graf again?
A.- When I was in a camp in the Sudeten Region, the SS refused to take me into Germany as a citizen, and owing to a denunciation the Gestapo arrested me in Troppo. Again I was under so-called protective custody, but after the situation was investigated I was released. Now, in the Sudeten District I was without any means at all, and being Stateless, I was not allowed to take any position, and in my distress I had my mother and my child with me, I turned in writing to Herr Graf, who at the time was in Kempten and Kaufbauern, where he was working. Herr Graf replied if I had no means of supporting myself in the Sudeten Region, would I come to him and his wife, they would look after me, and my billeting, and that he would see to it that I would got work. I packed my belongings, and travelled with my mother and my child to Kaufbauerer.
Q.- In Kaufbauerer, did you get a job through Herr Graf?
A.- Yes. First of all Herr Graf's wife had died in the meantime, and therefore, I could not remain in his home. He took care of it then to see to it that I was taken care of by farmers in the country who could help me, and at the same time he got me a job as an office worker in the DAG (Dynamit Ltd).
Q.- During the time of your presence in Kaufbauerer, did you make any observations as to Herr Graf's activities?
A.- Since Herr Graf visited the DAG repeatedly, I assumed that he had some kind of a job, and was there in an official capacity.
He had asked me to talk to the Ukrainina population now and then because I knew the language, in order to find out under what conditions the foreign workers were living there, as a great number had escaped from work, and he suspected apparently that the management of the DAG treated the Eastern workers badly.
Q.- Did you make any observations that because of your communication Herr Graf saw to it that the conditions were changed?
A.- There I talked to the Ukrainians and the Russian workers; because those people were always very close to my heart, and I was told that the food was so bad that they could not live there any longer, that is why they escaped from the DAG. I tasted the food, and found it could not be eaten. Later it was found out that the cook smuggled the food and used it for the black market, and the Eastern workers did not have enough food to cat. Apart from that the workers from the East had the potatoes taken away from then by the Police, which they had got from the farmers. I reported this to Herr Graf, and he tried after that not without difficulties to insist that the management sofar as the foreign workers were concerned gave the same food as the german workers received. In fact, in April 1945, he achieved this.
Q.- Go ahead?
A.- Apart from that he gave instructions, or rather he succeeded in achieving that the food which the Eastern workers received from the farmers for their work was not taken away from then any longer.
Q.- What impression did you have because of your various meetings with Matthias Graf concerning his character and political attitude?
A.- In general I had the impression that Herr Graf had a very good up-bringing. He had a devout up-bringing, and to be quite honest I could not see how he came into the SS at all, he didn't fit in there.
Q.- Why not?
A.- The reason was because he was devout, which I could not coincide as in Russia it would be quite impossible that a person whoever visited a church could join the Communist Party, or would be admitted.
Q.- I have one final question?
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't quite catch the last statement. She was talking about her surprise that a man with religious tendencies should be in the SS. Then she spoke about the Communist Party. I didn't quite catch the connection. Would you please repeat that, witness?
THE WITNESS: Yes, according to my knowledge of the Soviet Union, I can not reconcile that a person who is devout and belongs to a church, simultaneously can belong to the NSDAP or the SD; that he would be accepted in such organization, because in the Communist Party this would be quite impossible.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't quite catch the comparison. What does the joining the NSDAP have to do with the Communist Party? Is that clear to you, Dr. Belzer?
DR. BELZER: Yes, the witness is trying to say that she was surprised concerning Herr Graf that he was with the SS, and yet had a religious attitude, and according to the experience she had had in Communist Russia, she simply could not imagine that a religious man, at the same time could be a Bolshevist Party member, and a member of any of its organizations, and looking at the German conditions in comparison, she could not imagine that a religious men should be in the SS. That is the comparison the witness was trying to make.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Thank you.
DR. BELZER: I have one final question. BY DR. BELZER:
Q.- Do you know anything about the fact that apart from the defendant here, Matthias Graf, another member of Einsatzcommando XI had the same name Graf?
A.- Yes. In Einsatzcommando in Krowoij-rog there was another Herr Graf, but I don't know his first name, or anything further about him, I only remember his appearance vaguely, which I might be able to describe. First of all, he was older than Herr Graf. He was graying, and I believe, I am not quite sure, he had the rank of an officer.
DR. BELZER: Thank you, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any defense counsel desire to cross examine the witness. If not, Mr. Hochwald will proceed.
MR. HOCHWALD: May it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald. BY HR. HOCHWALD:
Q.- Witness, what is your nationality?
A.- I am stateless.
Q,- Did you have any nationality before the war?
A.- In our circles in Russia, we were mentioned as German but as Russian subjects.
Q.- So I am right in assuming that you were before you were stateless a Soviet Citizen, is that correct?
A.- Yes.
Q.- You have told the Tribunal that you were an Ethnic German, is that correct?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And that your husband was also an Ethnic German?
A.- Yes.
Q.- When was he deported to Siberia?
A.- On 4November 1937.
Q.- And from this time you changed your mind about the Soviet Union is that correct?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Am I then right in assuming that when the Germans attacked the Soviet Union, when that started your sympathies were with the German forces than with the Russian?
A.- Yes.
Q.- You have then told the Tribunal that you were called into the NKVD Building, and it was suggested to you either to go to Siberia, or to enter the Intelligence Service for this Soviet Union, is that right?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Where was that, witness?
A.- In Saporosje.
Q.- If I am not mistaken, it was in the middle of August 1941, is that right?
A.- Yes, 15th of August.
Q.- Who suggested this thing to you?
A.- First a member of the Russian NKVD. I whether would accept this order on principle.
Q.- What did you do when he asked you that?
A.- I said I was prepared to accept this order.
Q.- Immediately?
A.- No, I was allowed to think about it for twenty-four hours.
Q.- Did he tell you of what nature this kind of Intelligence Service would be?
A.- Not on that day, no.
Q.- Do you remember the name of this official?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Can you tell the Tribunal the name, please?
A.- That was Lt. Kiwenkov.
Q.- Do you know whether also other people were offered jobs of the same kind at the same time by the same official?
A.- Whether by the same official, I don't know, but I was set on route with a few others. There were no other Ethnic Germans among them, but there were Kuranians.
Q You were the only Ethnic German?
Q When did you learn the nature of your job?
A On 15 August, that is in the evening between 10 and 11 o'clock in the Staff of the General of the southern army.
Q Where was that?
Q Who informed you about your task?
Q What did he tell you? have to travel and the mission. I was to go the Uman where the first collision allegedly with the 9th Russian Army had occurred and was to find out under what circumstances the 9th Army had come to an end, whether owing to treason or other circumstances.
Q May I ask you a question. Did you have former training in intelligence work? position to find out all these facts and to inform the Soviet General Staff correctly about such a rather complicated matter? which directed all my deeds and actions I believe, assuming I had been on my own without children, I think I would have been able to carry out this task. out this task?
Q Without any training before hand? was to do was to find out from the population how the 9th Army had come to an end.
an Army, is quite a large unit, the question how such an Army disappeared or was destroyed is dependent on hundreds and hundreds of small things many of which the population certainly does not know, knowledge of persons in the area from whom you can gather the information certainly is necessary. Had you been briefed on this job or just sent out be the major to go? Did he give you addresses, names, lists of confidents? Did he do that? territory I should then turn to a liaison officer of the NKWD, but he did not give me any names.
Q Did he tell you where you could find the man? could have remained there from the Russian unit.
Q To whom were you supposed to report?
A I was to return to -- Just a moment -- I can't remember the name of the place. The Staff of the General assumed that I would not be able to reach Saporosje on my way back and had named me another city, near Charkov where I was to go to, but I can't remember the name now. the treason which allegedly led to the destruction of the 9th Army?
Q How long did you confer with him?
A I believe 3/4 of an hour.
Q And you had never heard before this 3/4 of an hour anything about intelligence service of this type, is that correct? ing of 3/4 of an hour you would be able in intelligence work to discover why a complete Army of the Red Army was destroyed, is that right? it out or not.
to do so.
Q May I ask another question?
Did this Major question your loyalty? He knew that you were Ethnic German, did he not?
had turned over to the conservations, and I was told about all my anti-communist attitude, and I was told what would happen to me if I did not carry out this mission. Apart from that, they told me that my child would be kept back as a hostage.
Q All right. What did you do then when you had received information from the major? time to do anything. I was not allowed to leave that room. I had to learn the route by heart and during the same night, together with a few other people, I was put into a car and I had to drive about 30 kilometers away from the city. Then we were turned out of the car and we had to walk.
Q What did you do then?
A Then we walked. I was never alone. And between Kriwoij-Rog and Novo Graf in a small Russian hamlet, we became captives of the Germans.
Q It was on the 16th of August, was it?
A No. We had already walked 500 kilometers. That was three weeks later.
Q Why were you arrested--why were you arrested, witness? ourselves away that we were uncertain, but in any case, the person in charge said we were to come to an officer who was a German, and this rittmeister brought us to Kirovograd in order to be interrogated.
Q Did you confess your task in this interrogation? or was that another unit? unit was called.