Q.- How did you and Herr Graf get separated again in Russia?
A.- Herr Graf was with his commando in Dnepropetrowsk for only a short while, and I believe for three weeks, something like that, he was transferred to Stalino, over there on the front.
Q.- Did you remain in Russia throughout the entire war?
A.- Yes, until the German troops withdrew in 1943.
Q.- And then?
A.- And then I was evacuated from Russia like all Ethnic Germans.
Q.- Later on, did you meet Herr Graf again?
A.- When I was in a camp in the Sudeten Region, the SS refused to take me into Germany as a citizen, and owing to a denunciation the Gestapo arrested me in Troppo. Again I was under so-called protective custody, but after the situation was investigated I was released. Now, in the Sudeten District I was without any means at all, and being Stateless, I was not allowed to take any position, and in my distress I had my mother and my child with me, I turned in writing to Herr Graf, who at the time was in Kempten and Kaufbauern, where he was working. Herr Graf replied if I had no means of supporting myself in the Sudeten Region, would I come to him and his wife, they would look after me, and my billeting, and that he would see to it that I would got work. I packed my belongings, and travelled with my mother and my child to Kaufbauerer.
Q.- In Kaufbauerer, did you get a job through Herr Graf?
A.- Yes. First of all Herr Graf's wife had died in the meantime, and therefore, I could not remain in his home. He took care of it then to see to it that I was taken care of by farmers in the country who could help me, and at the same time he got me a job as an office worker in the DAG (Dynamit Ltd).
Q.- During the time of your presence in Kaufbauerer, did you make any observations as to Herr Graf's activities?
A.- Since Herr Graf visited the DAG repeatedly, I assumed that he had some kind of a job, and was there in an official capacity.
He had asked me to talk to the Ukrainina population now and then because I knew the language, in order to find out under what conditions the foreign workers were living there, as a great number had escaped from work, and he suspected apparently that the management of the DAG treated the Eastern workers badly.
Q.- Did you make any observations that because of your communication Herr Graf saw to it that the conditions were changed?
A.- There I talked to the Ukrainians and the Russian workers; because those people were always very close to my heart, and I was told that the food was so bad that they could not live there any longer, that is why they escaped from the DAG. I tasted the food, and found it could not be eaten. Later it was found out that the cook smuggled the food and used it for the black market, and the Eastern workers did not have enough food to cat. Apart from that the workers from the East had the potatoes taken away from then by the Police, which they had got from the farmers. I reported this to Herr Graf, and he tried after that not without difficulties to insist that the management sofar as the foreign workers were concerned gave the same food as the german workers received. In fact, in April 1945, he achieved this.
Q.- Go ahead?
A.- Apart from that he gave instructions, or rather he succeeded in achieving that the food which the Eastern workers received from the farmers for their work was not taken away from then any longer.
Q.- What impression did you have because of your various meetings with Matthias Graf concerning his character and political attitude?
A.- In general I had the impression that Herr Graf had a very good up-bringing. He had a devout up-bringing, and to be quite honest I could not see how he came into the SS at all, he didn't fit in there.
Q.- Why not?
A.- The reason was because he was devout, which I could not coincide as in Russia it would be quite impossible that a person whoever visited a church could join the Communist Party, or would be admitted.
Q.- I have one final question?
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't quite catch the last statement. She was talking about her surprise that a man with religious tendencies should be in the SS. Then she spoke about the Communist Party. I didn't quite catch the connection. Would you please repeat that, witness?
THE WITNESS: Yes, according to my knowledge of the Soviet Union, I can not reconcile that a person who is devout and belongs to a church, simultaneously can belong to the NSDAP or the SD; that he would be accepted in such organization, because in the Communist Party this would be quite impossible.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't quite catch the comparison. What does the joining the NSDAP have to do with the Communist Party? Is that clear to you, Dr. Belzer?
DR. BELZER: Yes, the witness is trying to say that she was surprised concerning Herr Graf that he was with the SS, and yet had a religious attitude, and according to the experience she had had in Communist Russia, she simply could not imagine that a religious man, at the same time could be a Bolshevist Party member, and a member of any of its organizations, and looking at the German conditions in comparison, she could not imagine that a religious men should be in the SS. That is the comparison the witness was trying to make.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Thank you.
DR. BELZER: I have one final question. BY DR. BELZER:
Q.- Do you know anything about the fact that apart from the defendant here, Matthias Graf, another member of Einsatzcommando XI had the same name Graf?
A.- Yes. In Einsatzcommando in Krowoij-rog there was another Herr Graf, but I don't know his first name, or anything further about him, I only remember his appearance vaguely, which I might be able to describe. First of all, he was older than Herr Graf. He was graying, and I believe, I am not quite sure, he had the rank of an officer.
DR. BELZER: Thank you, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any defense counsel desire to cross examine the witness. If not, Mr. Hochwald will proceed.
MR. HOCHWALD: May it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald. BY HR. HOCHWALD:
Q.- Witness, what is your nationality?
A.- I am stateless.
Q,- Did you have any nationality before the war?
A.- In our circles in Russia, we were mentioned as German but as Russian subjects.
Q.- So I am right in assuming that you were before you were stateless a Soviet Citizen, is that correct?
A.- Yes.
Q.- You have told the Tribunal that you were an Ethnic German, is that correct?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And that your husband was also an Ethnic German?
A.- Yes.
Q.- When was he deported to Siberia?
A.- On 4November 1937.
Q.- And from this time you changed your mind about the Soviet Union is that correct?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Am I then right in assuming that when the Germans attacked the Soviet Union, when that started your sympathies were with the German forces than with the Russian?
A.- Yes.
Q.- You have then told the Tribunal that you were called into the NKVD Building, and it was suggested to you either to go to Siberia, or to enter the Intelligence Service for this Soviet Union, is that right?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Where was that, witness?
A.- In Saporosje.
Q.- If I am not mistaken, it was in the middle of August 1941, is that right?
A.- Yes, 15th of August.
Q.- Who suggested this thing to you?
A.- First a member of the Russian NKVD. I whether would accept this order on principle.
Q.- What did you do when he asked you that?
A.- I said I was prepared to accept this order.
Q.- Immediately?
A.- No, I was allowed to think about it for twenty-four hours.
Q.- Did he tell you of what nature this kind of Intelligence Service would be?
A.- Not on that day, no.
Q.- Do you remember the name of this official?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Can you tell the Tribunal the name, please?
A.- That was Lt. Kiwenkov.
Q.- Do you know whether also other people were offered jobs of the same kind at the same time by the same official?
A.- Whether by the same official, I don't know, but I was set on route with a few others. There were no other Ethnic Germans among them, but there were Kuranians.
Q You were the only Ethnic German?
Q When did you learn the nature of your job?
A On 15 August, that is in the evening between 10 and 11 o'clock in the Staff of the General of the southern army.
Q Where was that?
Q Who informed you about your task?
Q What did he tell you? have to travel and the mission. I was to go the Uman where the first collision allegedly with the 9th Russian Army had occurred and was to find out under what circumstances the 9th Army had come to an end, whether owing to treason or other circumstances.
Q May I ask you a question. Did you have former training in intelligence work? position to find out all these facts and to inform the Soviet General Staff correctly about such a rather complicated matter? which directed all my deeds and actions I believe, assuming I had been on my own without children, I think I would have been able to carry out this task. out this task?
Q Without any training before hand? was to do was to find out from the population how the 9th Army had come to an end.
an Army, is quite a large unit, the question how such an Army disappeared or was destroyed is dependent on hundreds and hundreds of small things many of which the population certainly does not know, knowledge of persons in the area from whom you can gather the information certainly is necessary. Had you been briefed on this job or just sent out be the major to go? Did he give you addresses, names, lists of confidents? Did he do that? territory I should then turn to a liaison officer of the NKWD, but he did not give me any names.
Q Did he tell you where you could find the man? could have remained there from the Russian unit.
Q To whom were you supposed to report?
A I was to return to -- Just a moment -- I can't remember the name of the place. The Staff of the General assumed that I would not be able to reach Saporosje on my way back and had named me another city, near Charkov where I was to go to, but I can't remember the name now. the treason which allegedly led to the destruction of the 9th Army?
Q How long did you confer with him?
A I believe 3/4 of an hour.
Q And you had never heard before this 3/4 of an hour anything about intelligence service of this type, is that correct? ing of 3/4 of an hour you would be able in intelligence work to discover why a complete Army of the Red Army was destroyed, is that right? it out or not.
to do so.
Q May I ask another question?
Did this Major question your loyalty? He knew that you were Ethnic German, did he not?
had turned over to the conservations, and I was told about all my anti-communist attitude, and I was told what would happen to me if I did not carry out this mission. Apart from that, they told me that my child would be kept back as a hostage.
Q All right. What did you do then when you had received information from the major? time to do anything. I was not allowed to leave that room. I had to learn the route by heart and during the same night, together with a few other people, I was put into a car and I had to drive about 30 kilometers away from the city. Then we were turned out of the car and we had to walk.
Q What did you do then?
A Then we walked. I was never alone. And between Kriwoij-Rog and Novo Graf in a small Russian hamlet, we became captives of the Germans.
Q It was on the 16th of August, was it?
A No. We had already walked 500 kilometers. That was three weeks later.
Q Why were you arrested--why were you arrested, witness? ourselves away that we were uncertain, but in any case, the person in charge said we were to come to an officer who was a German, and this rittmeister brought us to Kirovograd in order to be interrogated.
Q Did you confess your task in this interrogation? or was that another unit? unit was called.
Q Did you confess immediately?
A Yes. I was tired of fighting, of resisting, and I was afraid about my child. battlefield, were not immediately taken out and shot when you confessed your activities?
worry about my child that I didn't care any more, and I know that if I had carried out the mission and had returned, I would have had the same fate by the Russian NKWD, even if I had carried out the mission.
Q Did You want to carry Out this task? closer and closer, and I had a little ray of hope that my child might be saved--my child was decisive for my entire actions-- and as soon as I could assume or hope that any child was no longer in Russian hands, my intentions wavered, because I had only one aim, to get back to my child. arrested, were you not, that gave you the possibility to tell to the Germans what was going on With you and to get your child back eventually is that right? human understanding and help me to get my child back. authorities? 6 in Kriwoij-Rog.
Q What did they do with you there--were you interrogated?
Q You store in protective custody, were you not?
Q How long?
Q Who interrogated you during this time?
Q And what happened then? and I was allowed to take my child back and was allowed to bring my child back to Dnjepropetrovsk. had been a Russian spy, and after a short time of protective custody you were released and never punishment for having been a spy, is that correct? Sudeten-Gau. Sudeten-Gau?
A No real punishment. I was only taken into protective custody. for having been a Russian spy behind the German lines?
A If you don't consider what I suffered during my life as a punishment, then I was not punished. it was not meted out by any authority against you, it was just hardship which you had to endure.
Very likely many other people had to endure such hardship who had never taken a job as a spy in any place, just as an effect of the War.
Will you tell the Tribunal what reason for this unusual leniency on the part of the German forces against you was?
A Must I say this here?
Q You must not answer any question if you do not want to. If you say "I don't want to answer this questions," I cannot compel you to do so.
DR. BELZER: Your Honor, perhaps the witness should be informed that she does not have to answer any questions, the answer of which might bring about any disadvantages for her.
PRESIDENT: The Tribunal confirms what Mr. Hochwald saud, that she is not required to answer.
Of course, the immunity does not go as far as you have indicated, Dr. Belzer, and a witness may refuse to answer any question which might incriminate a Witness, but this Tribunal will go further than that and will not compel any witness to answer any question if for any reason the witness is disinclined to answer. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q So I take it then that you prefer not to answer this question? to be afraid of being handed over to the NKWD again, from whom I have suffered so much already, the I would answer this question freely. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Where do you live now, Witness?
Q Do you have your child with you?
Q Where is your husband?
A I don't know. I was told he was expelled in Siberia. I don't know whether he is still alive.
Q How long ago was that?
Q You never heard from him since? Mr. Hochwald put to you, and you are entirely free to answer or not to answer. Certainly you need have nothing to fear from the present authorities, but if you do have any fear of any character and for that reason would rather not answer the question, you follow your own inclinations in that respect.
A Shall I answer?
Q Well, we have left it to you, Witness. If you entertain any apprehensions of any character that some harm may befall you by answering the questions which was put by Mr. Hochwald, you need not, but if you think that a clarification would be in order, and that you can escape any ignominy or hardship or punishment which the court doesn't see, then, of course, you may answer the question, but it is entirely up to you.
A Very well, I shall answer. I would like to say first that not only I am concerned with this, that all the Menoits who emigrated from Holland had to suffer terribly from cruelities in Russia; in the flourishing locations at the time not one man ever came home in the villages, all the men were expelled to Siberia in 1930. I suffered terrible things. Small children, babies, were taken away from the mothers' breasts. The mother was taken to Siberia. The father was taken to Siberia, and they never Saw each other again. It is natural that for a government who sets up its power on millions of corpses. I felt an unbounded despise, and that when I accepted the mission, I had a little hope that I might be able to do a small service to my countrymen, and that is why I volunteered for the German Wehrmacht.
That if the reason why I received decent treatment by the Germans. BY MR. HOCHWALD: not arrested by the Germans, that you reported to the Germans, isn't that right?
Q You were alone when you did this? you said that together with other persons you were arrested by the German forces?
A Yes. I chose a moment when the other persons who were with me took a different route. you fetched your child, is that correct? that right? brought my child -- just a minute, not to Einsatzkommando 6, that was not in Dnepropetrovsk at that time, there was another unit of the security service there. I don't know the number there. I never knew it. leased from protective custody with units of the SD? Were you an employee of the SD?
A No. I was an employee of the general commissariat of the department of agriculture and food in Dnepropetrovsk. I was employed there through the intermediation of Herr Graf.
Q Was it a German agency?
Q Were you paid for your duties there? German Government?
Q When was that?
A In the fall of 1943. I don't know the date. left Dnepropetrovsk you left the place with them? until they were no longer able to take the civilian employees with them, and then, like all other ethnic Germans, I was taken in a transport via Litzmannstadt and was evacuated to the Sudeten district. a Russian citizen, didn't you? to Mr. Graf as Mrs. Graf had died in the meantime, he got you an employment in a factory, isn't that correct?
A Yes, in his factory?
Q In a factory?
Q was it a state-owned factory? rect -- is that correct, did I understand you? the war effort?
this place?
A. Well, I was only there for a short period of time, for only about two weeks -- I did not look into it very deeply. I did see SS men occasionally, but what their tasks were, I don't know.
Q. You told the Tribunal further that Herr Graf wanted from you certain information about the Eastern workers in this factory, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ask yourself, or did you know why he wanted this information?
A. No. I considered this to be more in the nature of private work. It was not given to me as a mission, he merely requested me to talk to the foreign workers.
Q. You knew that he was in the SD, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Nevertheless, you were of the opinion that he asked you these questions entirely out of private curiosity?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell me further, you remained in contact with Herr Graf from the time you met him first in 1941 til the end of the war, is that correct?
A. We had correspondence also with Mrs. Graf. Yes.
Q. All the time?
A. Yes.
Q. I gather from your testimony that you have a great personal admiration for him, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So I gather that you tried in the best possible way to help him here? Is that right?
A. First of all, I am always prepared to stand up for the truth, and it is my opinion that Herr Graf as a decent human being, deserves that I testify everything I know about him.
MR. HOCHWALD: I have further questions, your Honor.
PRESIDENT: Dr. Belzer, do you have any further questions of this witness?
DR. BEIZER: Just one question, your Honor.
PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Witness, do you know that it was the custom in the NKWD that a great number of intelligence agents were sent behind the German lines without hardly any training?
A. Yes, hoping that perhaps one among 50 might be able to find out something.
DR. BELZER: Thank you. I have no further questions.
PRESIDENT: Do you have something further, Mr. Hochwald?
MR. HOCHWALD: I beg the Tribunal's pardon.
PRESIDENT: Certainly. BY MR HOCHWALD:
Q. You have just said that you know that the NKWD used to send great many unskilled informers out. Where from do you have this information?
A. After the German troops entered, I talked to ethnic German women who had received the same mission and were trained even less than I was, young Students, girls who had no experience at all, who could not possibly have carried out this mission, but they tried to send them.
Q. But you did not receive this information from the major who briefed you?
A. No.
PRESIDENT: You have now finished, Dr. Belzer -- have you finished with your entire case?
DR. BELIZER: I have finished except for presenting my documents.
PRESIDENT: Yes. The next defendants would be the defendants Rasch and Strauch. They are both more or less 111, so that some preparation might be required in order to take up their cases, and in fact defense counsel have asked for further medical examinations, and that is the reason we cannot proceed immediately with those two defendants. So that it is the opinion of the Tribunal that something could be gained in time if we take up the cases of these two defendants next week that is, on Monday morning. In the meantime, all counsel, of course, will be engaged in finishing their documentation, not only the document books, but we presume that they are also working on their closing statements. From all appearances, the taking of testimony should be finished next week, then there will be a recess of one week during which time all counsel will complete their closing statements and then the following week we will hear the statements. I hope that the majority of counsel already have their closing statement in good hands so they can be turned in to the defense information center -- the defense center, and they can be processed so that when they are delivered in court orally the Tribunal will have copies and, therefore, can more keenly and acutely follow the arguments being made by defense counsel. now adjourn until next Monday morning at 9:30 o'clock.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 12 January 1938, at 0930 hours.)
&
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: In the absence of Dr. Stein for the Defendant Sandberger, Your Honors, I ask that the Defendant Sandberger be excused this afternoon for the session, so he can prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Sandberger will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Thank you.
DR. KLEINERT (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT SEIBERT): Your Honor, I would like to ask the same thing for my client.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Seibert will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon.
DR. SURHOLT (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT RASCH): The defense for the Defendant Rasch will try to examine the defendant as a witness in his own case. Before I begin with the examination, I would like to make an explanation for this procedure and read into the record: On the 5th of September, 1947, by having reference to Article IV-D of Ordinance No. 7, the defense has made a written motion to the court to have the proceedings against Dr. Rasch set aside because of the inability of the defendant to stand trial.
This motion has not yet been ruled upon. I will not go into the reasons for this. The defense just wants to make clear that this motion still stands. in his own cause, despite his physical condition be considered a demonstration of good will. The results, whatever they may be, will be an additional clarification, that is, in addition to the medical opinion now available, and will continue to clarify the facts of the case, which & are important for the Tribunal in order to rule upon the motion made by the defense.