announced an order because he was obliged to do so. It is possible that a man is obligated to announce an order without approving it himself. Even a soldier will criticize orders -
Q Very well, I understand that. I did not know that when Streckenbach gave the order originally that he had any reservations about it, but from what you tell me now, I am to believe that Streckenbach at no time approved of the order, but merely passed it on, because it was his duty as an officer to do so. Streckenbach. I merely know them from the situation as it developed in this conversation which I had with him.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Thank you. BY DR. HORLICK-Hochwald: one question and I would like you to answer this question first with "yes" or "no" and then you can explain it to us. Did Streckenbach on the 28th or 29th, when you told him your story about Rasch, tell you that a Fuehrer Order existed or not? existed.
Q So you change your testimony. In Direct, you said he told you that he would refer to Heydrich and that a few days later he came back from Heydrich and told you then that there was a Fuehrer Order existing.
A Mr. Prosecutor, in reference to the fact of the existing Fuehrer Order I did not want to cinfine myself to a date, but merely wanted to mention the fact that Streckenbach did make known to me the existence of this Fuehrer Order.
that a Fuehrer Order existed, is that right?
A I cannot say definitely, I don't know. intervention with Heydrich about these happenings in the East or whether he told you immediately that nothing can be done in this respect, as an order of Hitler was just given him?
A This possibility existed, Mr. Prosecutor. May I only point out that I really cannot remember the conversation exactly. I can only remember the fact that Streckenbach was aroused by the way in which this order was issued and that he also promised me he would speak with Heydrich to clarify these matters. The possibility exists that he also told me at that time that it cannot be changed, but whether this was before the conversation with Heydrich or after the conversation with Heydrich I cannot remember, even though I have a pretty good memory.
Q All right. You testified here that you had a very close official relationship with Streckenbach, is that correct?
Q How were your personal relations? friendly. a job with an Einsatzkommando?
A Yes, I think so, Mr. Prosecutor. This reproach of being soft pursued me for a long time, but it was unjust, for in order to clarify these mixed feelings I tried to describe these concepts of brutality, of harshness, of goodness and softness of leader and superior to my students in the training course.
Streckenbach knew that I was absolutely an opponent of any brutality measures and this fact, Mr. Prosecutor, can be proven for the entire time of my 25 years in Police work. He was the man who handed down to you the order that you would have to take the command of an Einsatzkommando. You were on excellent official and personal terms with him and he never told you what kind of tasks you would be confronted with. Do you want to comment on that?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. The message that I should take over an Einsatzkommando reached me in the same way as it reached all others. I received a teletype message just as everybody else. Streckenbach did not tell me in any way that this assignment included the execution of human beings.
Q He never told you? BY THE PRESIDENT: of human beings?
A I heard about that when the order of Dr. Rasch was made known in Lemberg. Here the Commissar Order was announced and explained in the building in Lemberg, according to which all Communists and Functionaries, and all others, whom I mentioned in the direct examination -- This order was made known at Lemberg and then it was explained what a tremendous danger the functionaries represented in Russia.
Q Very well. Very well. How much time elapsed between the receipt of the teletype which merely informed you you were to take command of an Einsatzkommando and when you learned the exact nature of the duties you were to execute? an Einsatzkommando, reached me in May 1941, and the announcement of the order in Lemberg took place in the beginning of July.
Q When? you were entirely ignorant of what was expected of you as the leader of a very important expedition?
Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: also know that you were too soft as you expressed it?
A I just don't knew, Mr. Prosecutor.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Horlick-Hochwald, I don't know whether I misunderstood the witness, but my recollection is that he said that he was reputed as being too soft and then he added, "But this observation was unjust," Did I understand you to say that, Witness?
THE WITNESS: Yes, insofar as I didn't get a chance yesterday to develop this subject further -
THE PRESIDENT: No, just about 15 minutes ago you said that "Everybody said I was too soft, but it was unjust to say that."
THE WITNESS: I consider this reproach of softness toward me as wrong, because, if I may express it this way, I see a difference between goodness arid softness. Softness is something bad. Goodheartedness is not.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, I merely wanted to call Mr. HorlichHochwald's attention and not to say that the witness was soft, with the assumption that he admitted softness. He absolutely denies softness.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: So I withdraw my question.
Q (By Mr. Horlich-Hochwald) I now would like to turn to the events in Lemberg. You have stated in your testimony that according to the information you received from the Defendant Rasch and according to your own information, a great number of citizens of Lemberg, Ukrainians and Poles, had been killed in the Lemberg prison, is that correct?
A Yes, that's right.
officers, Which had been found mutilated. tion of Lemberg under the leadership of officials of the Jewish faith. Is that correct?
A Yes, Jewish Commissars. I would like to emphasize here that these are not my own findings, but it was the description which Dr. Rasch gave us, and it was evident that there was great tension between the Jewish population and the rest. These are merely facts which I can state here. I would like to quote your testimony: "The militia had received an order to arrest the Jewish popjlation of Lemberg and also those who were suspected of having participated in these killings." Does that mean all Jews in Lemberg were arrested?
A Well, at any rate, a very great part: on the field in Lemberg, as I have described it, I saw that there were about 2,000 to 3,000 male Jews among whom there were also some Non-Jews. I cannot give you the ratio, but these people had been arrested. or not, just for the simple reason that they were Jews, is that right? large number it is out of the question that an arrest was carried out only after thorough investigation. as to the killings of the Ukrainians and Poles. Did I understand you correctly?
A That's right, Mr. Prosecutor. The way Dr. Rasch described it to us, a special Fuehrer Order arrived from Berlin but the way it was told to us it was meant only as a reprisal measure for Lemberg.
Q It was a special order then for this one incident? Do I understand you correctly?
Q When was this order issued? first days of July. As far as I remember, I arrived in Lemberg about the 2d of July and it must have been around the 3d or 4th of July, but I really do not know the exact day.
Q It was immediately after you came to Lemberg? same day. killed, approximately?
AAccording to what Dr. Rasch said, it was supposed to have been about 5,000 people.
Q And how many Germans?
A I cannot give you the number. I don't know.
A I cannot even give you an approximate number, because I don't know. ordered and carried out, for the killing of the Poles and the Ukrainians or for the mutilation or eventual killing of the members of the German forces? about the fact of the order. I don't know its contents.
Q In other words, you don't know which. These are two completely different actions. You as an old police officer will certainly understand that: On the one hand, killing of civilian population before the German Wehrmacht came to Lemberg. On the other hand, killing of members of the armed forces, is it not? So you do not know for which of these two acts the reprisals were ordered.
the entire killings in Lemberg. the German, soldiers? reprisal order that beside this special reprisal order there was a general order of Hitler that all Jews, Gypsies, and Communists should be killed? contrary, only the order was announced, which I mentioned here, namely, the so-called Commissar Order, excerpts from the Barbarossa Order, and I can remember exactly that when these orders were announced, one of them lay before him in a printed form and that it was top secret. cated this order?
A Of the defendants I do not believe anyone was there. I cannot say definitely. Kommando 4b had arrived there first, but had continued very soon afterwards. Then Kommando 6 was there, and how many other Kommandos were there while passing through, I cannot say. Furthermore a large Einsatz Staff from the General Government was there.
Q You don't remember any of the defendants being present? limited order of reprisals and the Commissar Order by requesting the proof of the guilt of the people who were to be executed, is that correct?
Q What exactly, Herr Schulz, do you mean by that? as far as it concerned the functionaries, did not have any restriction. If one did not limit this concept of functionary, it could be interpreted wilfully. In order to avoid this wilfullness in interpretation, I demanded that in every case guilt would have to be determined. This, of course, was not necessary with the others, such as saboteurs and looters, for a saboteru has already committed a punitive action, otherwise one could not designate him as a saboteur.
it, is that right?
A Yes, that' right.
Q I am also interested in how you limited the reprisal order. Will you tell that to the Tribunal? for I had no competence nor opportunity to limit or correct this order in any way, for the execution of this order was exclusively in the hands of Dr. Rasch, personally. trial before they were executed?
in which we were billeted, and withe the participation of the Lemberg population, probably some officials of member of the police, interrogations took place continuously from morning to night.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, I think it is very clear to the Tribunal that there was no trial in the accepted understanding of that word. And he has indicated what they did. They interrogated th suspects, and then made their decisions.
DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Yes, sir. I withdraw my question, then. Well, did not-
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald. I am informed that in about two minutes the film will have consumed itself. So let us take our recess now.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: May I proceed, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed. BY DR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If I am not mistaken, Herr Schulz, you answered the question of the Tribunal as to how long a time was at the disposal of the investigating authorities in Lemberg, - at the utmost 48 hours. Is that correct? As far as I recollect I followed my statement, I arrived on the second of July, and if I remember it correctly on the following day the arrests were made, and according to my memory, and also according to the statement I made, on the 6th or 7th day after I had arrived in Lemberg, I went on. As the day of our march was the day after the execution had taken place, the interval between that day of our arrival and the day of our march must have been the day of the interrogations.
Q Who carried out these investigations? in change, and a larger unit of the General Government. took part in this investigation?
A No, I cannot say exactly, Mr. Prosecutor, because I did not take part myself in these matters and I did not investigate about them, but I assume that there must have been over 50 to 60 people taking part in that. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You mean investigating?
A Yes, those people who carried out the investigations. That is the number which I can estimate, approximately. Those people were in the building, but I cannot say that with certainty. the Einsatzkammando? part in it, as far as I can see. I may add here that I cannot say with certainty -- in the building there was quite a lot of traffice, as it were, and I saw that many police officials took part in these investigations and interrogations. I cannot say anything further, your Honor.
Q How many were there in your command? and about 50 members of the regular police. They latter were, of course, also trained police officials which were trained in ordinary police service.
Q So that you had a personnel of 73 people?
Q In your Commando there were 73?
A Well, those were trained as police officials, yes; they were professional police officials.
command?
A You mean the total number?
A Including the drivers?
AApproximately 200, your Honor. Of these, there were about 50 drivers.
Q 50 drivers. Give me the breakdown of those 200 people. 50 drivers, and then what? 25 members of the Security Police, that is, State Police, Criminal Police, and SD. Furthermore, there were about 50 drivers. 50 members of the Waffen-SS and 50 members of the regular police, and there were a few additional members who were interpreters. That is approximately the breakdown.
Q Yes. Now, excluding the drivers - you then had, let us say, approximately about 150 men?
Q Yes; now, of these 150, one-third were engaged in this interrogation work, because you said 50 to 60. of people in the building. Of my own Commando men had been assigned to this. My Commandoo that is, No. 5, did not participate in the interrogations in Lemberg. My Commando was ready to march because I had been given the order to march off as soon as possible. Only because of these happenings in Lemberg I was prevented from marching on.
THE COURT: But your kommando participated in the executions? least my kommando was ordered to take part in these executions. Were executed? interrogations. You say you don't know who conducted the investigations; no one from your kommando sat in on the investigations, and you have no knowledge of what the investigations really brought out. Now is it you did not interest yourself a little more, since you were so concerned about seeing to it that no innocent people suffered? kommando had anything to do whatever with this task, because I have already mentioned that my kommando was ready to march, and should have marched on.
A (continuing) The distribution of the task was subordinate to the commander who was in charge of the task, generally, and who was in the same building, and who also made the necessary decisions. I believe that he would have disapproved very strongly if I had also taken part in the officialship. were executed, you do not of your own personal knowledge know whether they were all guilty, or not. - - just a moment, the switch is turned off, I am getting only the German. me that the individual cases were examined. executed by your kommando?
Q Were you given a list of those who were to be executed?
A No, Your Honor, I was not given that. The supervision of all of these executions was under the Einsatzkommando-VI, and even the investigation of the people charged with crimes was carried out by this kommando, and that on that day my kommando only had to supply the execution squad, having received an immediate oredr from Dr. Rasch.
Q How did you know who was to be executed?
A We were informed of this by Dr. Rasch, that is, that the participants were to be executed as reprisals. I am not informed, whether when reprisal measures are carried out,there arises the question of guilt at all, whether it is of any importance whatsoever, I can not decide that. the execution of individuals whose guilt you personally were not as sure of?
A I only knew the cases had been examined. The order had been given to examine also these cases, and I had assumed that the careful decision, of the Einsatzgruppe chiefs were right and that the executions which were carreid out were justified, once they were reprisals officers?
A No, I didn't doubt it, mainly because I could observe, Your Honor that some of the arrested people were always separated. From these observations I had to assume that these people who were separated had been examined and interrogated. certain place where they were awaiting your arrival? Lemberg. I had to deploy my Einsatzkommado there to carry out these executions. The victims, or the people who were to be executed were taken there by trucks in consignments of eighteen to twenty people, or they were taken there by Einsatzkommando-VI, or by people of the general government, I don't know exactly, and the militia also handled the burying of these people.
I already said my kommando was only in charge of the carrying out of the executions. of to Streckenbach prior to the executions?
A No, Your Honor, this order was not made known at Lemberg. This order, which I complained about, was the one proclaimed at the beginning of August, around the 10th of August, approximately, and it was proclaimed in Shitomir.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Mr. Hochwald. BY MR HOCHWALD: each involving about eighteen people, by your Einsatzkommando? Rasch were carried out in connection with this reprisal?
A That I can not say Mr. Prosecutor, I can not remember, I don't know. I think I can remember that that there were reprisals - that the number was established by the Fuhrer, but I don't know this number. you received from Rasch in the beginning of August in Shitomir? announced this order?
A Of the defendants, nobody was present. It is possible that Herr Blobel was there, but I am not certain that he was present. It is certain that Herr Naumann was there, and Dr. Kroeger. There were a few other gentleman but I don't remember the names. there was a Fuehrer Order in existence, which in essence had the same content within the order he gave you as handed down by Jekeln from Himmler?
Q Nobody said such a thing? opposition against this order of Rasch's?
A Yes, I did. Not only I objected but also other people, other comrades who were present. They most decidedly complained about it.
Q What exactly did you say?
A I can not remember the exact words. I do not remember them. Because I did not know that I would have to repeat them one day. It was within the framework of general discussion whether it would have been practicable under the conditions to complain, and to speak about it, I don't know. I am not able to decide about this, and I decided on that occasion to act, and, I merely asked questions whether the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin knew about these orders, and, whether the RSHA agreed to them. Whereupon, as I already said, in direct examination, Rasch answered that was absolutely certain, if the highest Police and SS Leader, the Obergruppenfuehrer Jekeln decreed such an order, then that was valid for all.
Q For all. Not only for the Einsatzgruppe-C, is that right?
A I may ask you what you mean by "all"?
Q You said that it was so that this order came from Himmler? C? and SS Leader Jekeln. Jekeln was competent for the Einsatzgruppe-C. Einsatzgruppe, which should not be valid for all of them, as the order for one Einsatzgruppe alone was issued by the group-commander, but not by the Gruppenfuehrer Himmler, who was in charge of all SS troops?
A That may be so in spite of this. I heard that on the part of Obergruppenfuehrer Jekeln, he was known to be a fanatic, that more was actually done, and more was actually decreed than perhaps was necessary and wanted, that I assumed at the time.
Q Did you see something in writing from Rasch, as to this order?
A No, I didn't, I didn't see anything in writing. which possibly would be more than was requested on which this order of Jekeln was based? that it came really from Himmler? then operated? Rundstedt?
Q What was your collaboration with the Army authorities? service, although in the short time of my stay in Russia I had no possibility, of course, and no opportunity to have a definite relation at all. I must inform you that during all these times, during the time I was in Russia, I was on the move all the time. you have connections with the lower army unit - the lower level? various agencies between the I-C, mainly, was done through a liaison man who had been appointed by myself.
Q So you had a regular liaison officer at Reicheman's headquarters?
A No, he was not in Reichenau's Headquarters. I han another liaison officer when I was in Berditschew with Army Group South and I dismissed the liaison officer for this task, because Army Group South was in Berditschew itself.
Q Who was commander of this Army Group? from that part of the Army to execute people? you?
A Probably through I.C.
Q And One-C handed this request to your liaison officer?
A No, he didn't.
Q You never got it?
Q Who got the order from One-C, the execution order, I mean?
A I do not know what order you are referring to? more times you received a request from the part of the Army to execute people, your answer was, yes. I then asked you how the chain of command was, how this order reached you, your answer was, it was over the One-C. My question now is, from the One-C whom did the order reach from the One-C?
A It was like this. Shortly after my arrival in Berditschew I visited him, and on the occasion of this visit to the Army South, I was told that in the case of Berditschew the arrested people were in the Citadel in Beritschew who had been arrested as partisans bearing arms in the fight at Berditschew , and I was asked to settle matter there and then.
Q. Who asked you that?
A. I am not in a position now to tell you the name.
Q. It must not be a name;which office of the Army requested it from you?
A. I think it must be an officer who was collaborating with the One-C, that he was an officer of One-C itself ,b ecause apart from this one visit I never visited the Army group south again.
Q. Then if I understand you correctly, then you executed people only on the basis of telephone or teletype requests without knowing anything as to the circumstances?
A. No.
Q. Only for the simple reason that an officer in an Army office asked you to do that , is that correct?
A. No, that is absolutely a mistake. I also explained the matter in a very different way. They were made known to me on occasions of such discussions, and then I ordered the investigation of these things. As I said,yesterday, I passed this on to subCommander of my command, and this officer did not have the opportunity or chance to deal with it immediately, and so even I was reminded by Dr. Rasch, my chief, when, a few days later he inspected my command, and told me that complaints had been received, and that the executions of these partisans, who were arrested in were in the Citadel, had not been carried out and only then I gave sub-commander the order again , and I asked him to investigate the matter. This investigation took place at the Citadel.
Q. And the Teilkommando leader settled the question with Wehrmacht immediately then? No, I understand you differently, I understand that it was left to your discretion and to the alscretion of the subordinates of yours t as to whether these people should be executed, as you said, the last investigation was left to one of your sub-commanders, is that correct?
A. The investigation was carried out by the commander of a subdetachment, after conclusion of the investigation . In this case the Wehrmacht decided how it was to be handled after that. I, myself, did not give any such order.
Q. Is it not true that the sub-commander was responsible to you and not to the Army?
A. Yes, they were subordinate to me, but I was subordinate to the Army; the Army could give orders to me and to my detachments.
Q. I only wonder that the sub-commander who was responsible reported to the Army and not to you.
A. Certainly, he also reported to me, but the people arrested at Berditschew were under military arrest at the Citadel, and, consequently, the authorities who arrested them had to be informed.
Q. But you received the requests for executions and not your sub-commander, and you gave him the order to investigate the matter, so, it seems to me more natural that you would have been informed about the effect of this investigation, and you could make then your recommendation to the Army, is it not true?
A. I could have done so, yes, but in this case I passed it onto the sub-commander who was in charge of the investigation.
Q. All right. You testified in this connection about another execution which was carried out in Suichnik, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Who ordered this execution?
A. I already described this event. I believe that it is known, but 'll repeat it again. One day --
Q. May I interrupt you a moment; I only want to know who ordered this execution, then you can explain. Say, first, who ordered it?