Q Who carried out these investigations? in change, and a larger unit of the General Government. took part in this investigation?
A No, I cannot say exactly, Mr. Prosecutor, because I did not take part myself in these matters and I did not investigate about them, but I assume that there must have been over 50 to 60 people taking part in that. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You mean investigating?
A Yes, those people who carried out the investigations. That is the number which I can estimate, approximately. Those people were in the building, but I cannot say that with certainty. the Einsatzkammando? part in it, as far as I can see. I may add here that I cannot say with certainty -- in the building there was quite a lot of traffice, as it were, and I saw that many police officials took part in these investigations and interrogations. I cannot say anything further, your Honor.
Q How many were there in your command? and about 50 members of the regular police. They latter were, of course, also trained police officials which were trained in ordinary police service.
Q So that you had a personnel of 73 people?
Q In your Commando there were 73?
A Well, those were trained as police officials, yes; they were professional police officials.
command?
A You mean the total number?
A Including the drivers?
AApproximately 200, your Honor. Of these, there were about 50 drivers.
Q 50 drivers. Give me the breakdown of those 200 people. 50 drivers, and then what? 25 members of the Security Police, that is, State Police, Criminal Police, and SD. Furthermore, there were about 50 drivers. 50 members of the Waffen-SS and 50 members of the regular police, and there were a few additional members who were interpreters. That is approximately the breakdown.
Q Yes. Now, excluding the drivers - you then had, let us say, approximately about 150 men?
Q Yes; now, of these 150, one-third were engaged in this interrogation work, because you said 50 to 60. of people in the building. Of my own Commando men had been assigned to this. My Commandoo that is, No. 5, did not participate in the interrogations in Lemberg. My Commando was ready to march because I had been given the order to march off as soon as possible. Only because of these happenings in Lemberg I was prevented from marching on.
THE COURT: But your kommando participated in the executions? least my kommando was ordered to take part in these executions. Were executed? interrogations. You say you don't know who conducted the investigations; no one from your kommando sat in on the investigations, and you have no knowledge of what the investigations really brought out. Now is it you did not interest yourself a little more, since you were so concerned about seeing to it that no innocent people suffered? kommando had anything to do whatever with this task, because I have already mentioned that my kommando was ready to march, and should have marched on.
A (continuing) The distribution of the task was subordinate to the commander who was in charge of the task, generally, and who was in the same building, and who also made the necessary decisions. I believe that he would have disapproved very strongly if I had also taken part in the officialship. were executed, you do not of your own personal knowledge know whether they were all guilty, or not. - - just a moment, the switch is turned off, I am getting only the German. me that the individual cases were examined. executed by your kommando?
Q Were you given a list of those who were to be executed?
A No, Your Honor, I was not given that. The supervision of all of these executions was under the Einsatzkommando-VI, and even the investigation of the people charged with crimes was carried out by this kommando, and that on that day my kommando only had to supply the execution squad, having received an immediate oredr from Dr. Rasch.
Q How did you know who was to be executed?
A We were informed of this by Dr. Rasch, that is, that the participants were to be executed as reprisals. I am not informed, whether when reprisal measures are carried out,there arises the question of guilt at all, whether it is of any importance whatsoever, I can not decide that. the execution of individuals whose guilt you personally were not as sure of?
A I only knew the cases had been examined. The order had been given to examine also these cases, and I had assumed that the careful decision, of the Einsatzgruppe chiefs were right and that the executions which were carreid out were justified, once they were reprisals officers?
A No, I didn't doubt it, mainly because I could observe, Your Honor that some of the arrested people were always separated. From these observations I had to assume that these people who were separated had been examined and interrogated. certain place where they were awaiting your arrival? Lemberg. I had to deploy my Einsatzkommado there to carry out these executions. The victims, or the people who were to be executed were taken there by trucks in consignments of eighteen to twenty people, or they were taken there by Einsatzkommando-VI, or by people of the general government, I don't know exactly, and the militia also handled the burying of these people.
I already said my kommando was only in charge of the carrying out of the executions. of to Streckenbach prior to the executions?
A No, Your Honor, this order was not made known at Lemberg. This order, which I complained about, was the one proclaimed at the beginning of August, around the 10th of August, approximately, and it was proclaimed in Shitomir.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Mr. Hochwald. BY MR HOCHWALD: each involving about eighteen people, by your Einsatzkommando? Rasch were carried out in connection with this reprisal?
A That I can not say Mr. Prosecutor, I can not remember, I don't know. I think I can remember that that there were reprisals - that the number was established by the Fuhrer, but I don't know this number. you received from Rasch in the beginning of August in Shitomir? announced this order?
A Of the defendants, nobody was present. It is possible that Herr Blobel was there, but I am not certain that he was present. It is certain that Herr Naumann was there, and Dr. Kroeger. There were a few other gentleman but I don't remember the names. there was a Fuehrer Order in existence, which in essence had the same content within the order he gave you as handed down by Jekeln from Himmler?
Q Nobody said such a thing? opposition against this order of Rasch's?
A Yes, I did. Not only I objected but also other people, other comrades who were present. They most decidedly complained about it.
Q What exactly did you say?
A I can not remember the exact words. I do not remember them. Because I did not know that I would have to repeat them one day. It was within the framework of general discussion whether it would have been practicable under the conditions to complain, and to speak about it, I don't know. I am not able to decide about this, and I decided on that occasion to act, and, I merely asked questions whether the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin knew about these orders, and, whether the RSHA agreed to them. Whereupon, as I already said, in direct examination, Rasch answered that was absolutely certain, if the highest Police and SS Leader, the Obergruppenfuehrer Jekeln decreed such an order, then that was valid for all.
Q For all. Not only for the Einsatzgruppe-C, is that right?
A I may ask you what you mean by "all"?
Q You said that it was so that this order came from Himmler? C? and SS Leader Jekeln. Jekeln was competent for the Einsatzgruppe-C. Einsatzgruppe, which should not be valid for all of them, as the order for one Einsatzgruppe alone was issued by the group-commander, but not by the Gruppenfuehrer Himmler, who was in charge of all SS troops?
A That may be so in spite of this. I heard that on the part of Obergruppenfuehrer Jekeln, he was known to be a fanatic, that more was actually done, and more was actually decreed than perhaps was necessary and wanted, that I assumed at the time.
Q Did you see something in writing from Rasch, as to this order?
A No, I didn't, I didn't see anything in writing. which possibly would be more than was requested on which this order of Jekeln was based? that it came really from Himmler? then operated? Rundstedt?
Q What was your collaboration with the Army authorities? service, although in the short time of my stay in Russia I had no possibility, of course, and no opportunity to have a definite relation at all. I must inform you that during all these times, during the time I was in Russia, I was on the move all the time. you have connections with the lower army unit - the lower level? various agencies between the I-C, mainly, was done through a liaison man who had been appointed by myself.
Q So you had a regular liaison officer at Reicheman's headquarters?
A No, he was not in Reichenau's Headquarters. I han another liaison officer when I was in Berditschew with Army Group South and I dismissed the liaison officer for this task, because Army Group South was in Berditschew itself.
Q Who was commander of this Army Group? from that part of the Army to execute people? you?
A Probably through I.C.
Q And One-C handed this request to your liaison officer?
A No, he didn't.
Q You never got it?
Q Who got the order from One-C, the execution order, I mean?
A I do not know what order you are referring to? more times you received a request from the part of the Army to execute people, your answer was, yes. I then asked you how the chain of command was, how this order reached you, your answer was, it was over the One-C. My question now is, from the One-C whom did the order reach from the One-C?
A It was like this. Shortly after my arrival in Berditschew I visited him, and on the occasion of this visit to the Army South, I was told that in the case of Berditschew the arrested people were in the Citadel in Beritschew who had been arrested as partisans bearing arms in the fight at Berditschew , and I was asked to settle matter there and then.
Q. Who asked you that?
A. I am not in a position now to tell you the name.
Q. It must not be a name;which office of the Army requested it from you?
A. I think it must be an officer who was collaborating with the One-C, that he was an officer of One-C itself ,b ecause apart from this one visit I never visited the Army group south again.
Q. Then if I understand you correctly, then you executed people only on the basis of telephone or teletype requests without knowing anything as to the circumstances?
A. No.
Q. Only for the simple reason that an officer in an Army office asked you to do that , is that correct?
A. No, that is absolutely a mistake. I also explained the matter in a very different way. They were made known to me on occasions of such discussions, and then I ordered the investigation of these things. As I said,yesterday, I passed this on to subCommander of my command, and this officer did not have the opportunity or chance to deal with it immediately, and so even I was reminded by Dr. Rasch, my chief, when, a few days later he inspected my command, and told me that complaints had been received, and that the executions of these partisans, who were arrested in were in the Citadel, had not been carried out and only then I gave sub-commander the order again , and I asked him to investigate the matter. This investigation took place at the Citadel.
Q. And the Teilkommando leader settled the question with Wehrmacht immediately then? No, I understand you differently, I understand that it was left to your discretion and to the alscretion of the subordinates of yours t as to whether these people should be executed, as you said, the last investigation was left to one of your sub-commanders, is that correct?
A. The investigation was carried out by the commander of a subdetachment, after conclusion of the investigation . In this case the Wehrmacht decided how it was to be handled after that. I, myself, did not give any such order.
Q. Is it not true that the sub-commander was responsible to you and not to the Army?
A. Yes, they were subordinate to me, but I was subordinate to the Army; the Army could give orders to me and to my detachments.
Q. I only wonder that the sub-commander who was responsible reported to the Army and not to you.
A. Certainly, he also reported to me, but the people arrested at Berditschew were under military arrest at the Citadel, and, consequently, the authorities who arrested them had to be informed.
Q. But you received the requests for executions and not your sub-commander, and you gave him the order to investigate the matter, so, it seems to me more natural that you would have been informed about the effect of this investigation, and you could make then your recommendation to the Army, is it not true?
A. I could have done so, yes, but in this case I passed it onto the sub-commander who was in charge of the investigation.
Q. All right. You testified in this connection about another execution which was carried out in Suichnik, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Who ordered this execution?
A. I already described this event. I believe that it is known, but 'll repeat it again. One day --
Q. May I interrupt you a moment; I only want to know who ordered this execution, then you can explain. Say, first, who ordered it?
A. The order was given by the local commander in Smolensk, who was the local commander at this town.
Q. Was he in a position to give yousuch an order?
A. The local commander did not pass on this order to me; that he made all these rules which he had to set up for his area as the commander of the town.
Q. To whom exactly did he give the order?
A. He gave this order to a detachment leader, whom I had put at his disposal for investigation at Smolensk.
Q. Was this sub-command leader responsible to you, or to the local commander?
A. He was subordinate of myself who was appointed by me to carry out the task for the Wehrmacht.
Q. Alright, did you ever receive orders to kill insane people.
A. I cannot remember having received an order to execute insane people.
Q. Did you ever kill insane -- I don't mean that you killed them, but under your command were there insane people executed?
A. I do not know of such a case.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether a Gestapo Leitstell is an office of the Gestapo?
A. I don't think I understand this question?
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether a Gestapo Leitstelle is a Gestapo Office?
A. A Gestapo Leitstelle is an official agency, yes.
Q.An office of the Gestapo, I asked.
A. A state police Leitstelle is an agency of the state police for one particular district of administration.
Q. May I rephrase my question? Does the Gestapo Leitstelle belong to the officesof the Gestapo?
A. Certainly.
Q. And a Gestapo Aussenstelle?
A. That is a subsidiary office of the Gestapo main office.
Q. A subsidiary office of the Gestapo, is it not?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Commandos and officers of such offices were members of the Gestapo, were they not?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. You told the Tribunal further what an inspecteur of the Security Police and the SD is. Is it not true that all Gestapo offices were under the supervision of either the Commander-in-Chief or the Inspecteur of the Security Police and the SD?
A. I don't think I understood your question correctly.
Q. Is it not true that all Gestapo offices of a certain area were under the supervision of the Commander in Chief or of the Inspecteur of the Security Police and the SD?
A. This was a different organization. Within the Reich territory itself there were the inspectors, so-called. The inspectors had no executive power. In the occupied territories, however, there were kommanders of the police and the SD, the executive power of whom was a much larger one, although, of course, they were tied to the orders of the central office, that is the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office.
Q. But wasthe inspecteur of the Security Police and the SD a member of the Gestapo, a Gestapo officer?
A. That depended, Mr. Prosecutor. They were taken from all three departments of the Security Service of the SD. There were inspecteurs who were taken from the State Police; inspecteurs who came from the SD; and also inspecteurs who came from the Criminal Police, but in their capacity as inspecteurs they were taken from their former activities within the other department and were subordinated immediately to the Chief of the Security Police.
I think this answers your question, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. That was perfectly correct. So it is possible that somebody can be supervising the Gestapo without being a member of it. Will you tell that to the Tribunal?
A. Yes, I mean the word "supervision" is perhaps not quite the right word here, If you mean the inspecteur, his task, at least within this department, wasto take care that all things were carried out in an orderly manner without that the inspecteur as such was not certified to give any orders for the carrying out of these tasks.
Q. No activities whatsoever, no executive activities whatsoever?
A. The inspecteur had no executive power.
Q. Who made the reports which were sent from Einsatzkommando V to Einsatzgruppe C?
A. They were drafted by the subkommanders.
Q. Did the subkommanders direct and send them to Einsatzgruppe C?
A. Not in every case. As a rule they were sent via the Einsatzkommando. These reports were not only drafted and made but by the subkommanders but even by individual collaborators.
Q. So it is true then that you received these reports, did you not?
A. Yes, I think I can say that.
Q. Did you read these reports before they were sent on?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Did you receive copies of the reports which were made by Einsatzgruppe C to the RSHA ?
A. No, I didn't receive such reports. I did not even receive copies from my own Einsatzkommando, because our Einsatzkommando had about three or four typewriters only, and basically only original reports were passed on.
Q. How then did you receive knowledge about the reports which were sent from Einsatzgruppe C to the RSHA?
A. Not at all. I never received reports from the Einsatzgruppe to the RSHA.
Q. You testified here in direct that you made a personal report to Rasch concerning the activities of his Staff Leader, Hoffmann. You further testified that Hoffmann was the man who made the reports.
A. Yes, I did so. My report to Dr. Rasxh did not only deal with the activity of Dr. Hoffmann, but with his human attitude which I criticized most vividly in this report. This had nothing to do with his reporting on individual brunches of his activity.
Q. How do you know then that Hoffmann made the reports?
A. I knew that from my discussions which I had with the Einsatzgruppe in Zhitomir. At least three or four times I have visited in Einsatzgruppe in Zhitomir.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether the Defendant Rasch did see the reports of Hoffmann before they were sent on?
A. What happens within the Einsatzgruppe itself, I am not able to say.
Q. So you cannot testify to the fact then that these reports were made only by Hoffmann as you stated in your direct examination, is that correct?
A. No, I cannot say that.
Q. Do you know whether it is true or not that Hoffmann and Rasch were on very friendly terms?
A. Generally it was assumed that Hoffmann and Rasch were on very close terms.
Q. What were your own relations to Rasch?
A. They were not of a very friendly nature.
Q. You stated in one of your affidavits which is in evidence that Rasch distinguished himself by extraordinary ruthlessness.
A. I think I used the term, "ruthlessness", but it was more or less in the same line, which I have already mentioned before. He was absolutely cold and void of feeling, and he passed on these very hard orders and severe orders without even trying to explain the necessity of such orders. There were some other points as well which caused me to estimate him, therefore, asan extremely cruel and ruthless man.
Q. Can you tell -- then, the other points?
A. I can only give reasons for this from his general appearance, his general personality. I cannot at the moment remember any individual details, Mr. Prosecutor. you about these terrible orders, but you did not find it ruthless that he carried out these terrible orders, is that correct? Do I understand you correctly?
A. I think that your question was unneccessary, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. You need not answer it.
A. In that case I will not answer it.
Q. When you were recalled from the East and returned to the RSHA did you ever report personally to Streckenbach or Heydrich on the activities of the Einsatzgruppen?
A. Already on the occasion of my first trip to Berlin I reported to Streckenbach explicitly, and after my return I did not omit to give him another detailed description about conditions in Russia. After all it then led also to Hoffmann's dismissal from the Security police as far as the person himself is concerned.
Q. Did you talk to Heydrich about the Hitler order?
A. No, I did not. I had hardly any relation or personal relation to Heydrich. I talked about it to Streckenbach, personally and I asked him to see Heydrich about it. This indeed was difficult. I said to Streckenbach that I would be prepared to report to Heydrich myself because Heydrich had then been appointed Reichprotector in Prague, and only stayed in Berlin for just very few days at a time.
After my return from Russia I never again saw Heydrich in Berlin.
Q. Apart from this information you gave to Streckenbach, did you make an attempt to have the order that all Jews, gypsies and Communists were to be killed withdrawn?
A. I know nothing about gypsies. May I have your question repeated, Mr. Prosecutor?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, you need not specify what the order was each time you mention it. It is the Fuehrer order. I think the Tribunal knows which order it is, and the witness knows, so just say "that order, the Fuehrer order".
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: I am so sorry, Sir.
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) Did you then make an attempt?
A. It was the purpose of my visit in Berlin, anyhow.
Q. I am sorry. You misunderstood me. I asked you when you were called back from the East.
A. Yes.
Q. It was at the end of September, you say. Did you then afterwards, when you returned, when you were in a quite high position in the RSHA, did you use your influence to do anything to have this order withdrawn?
A. After my return I discussed it with Streckenbach again, and I reported about the events in the East as I had experienced them myself, and although I knew that they were now being stopped, I discussed them in great detail with Dr. Kaltenbrunner at the very beginning, and one of my first requests in 1943 when I became the personnel chief was the request to have a general inspecteur appointed who, independently from all offices, would supervise the offices, mainly within the East in order to find out what was actually happening there. This inspecteur general was refused to me; but I succeeded to have a trustee at my disposal in order to examine and investigate conditions in the East which I no longer was able to survey. Standartenfuehrer Dr. Canaris on my personal request, received this order from Kaltenbrunner, the personal order to make an inspection tour through the Eastern Territories and to report to him without any restraint what so ever what he had seen and heard. This report on the part of Dr. Canaris, which contained many pages and still showed up many shortcomings, was submitted to Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kaltenbrunner, and on the basis of this report there was an absolute clean-up. about assigning the Security police also with the combat of partisans. At the beginning I succeeded in this to the extent that in my opening speech as Chief of Group I, I could inform the chiefs of all three departments that the soldierly tasks of the security police, which was an unusual kind of task for the police, the playing at soldiers, was to be discontinued, and that with the agreement of Kaltenbrunner the Security Police in the East would only deal with matters of security policy from than on.
Q. Am I correct in assuming that it is your contention that nobody way ever executed by units under your command unless he was found guilty of a very serious crime and of an overt act which endangered the security of the German Army, is that correct?
A. That was my intention yes.
Q. I did not ask whether it was your intention. I asked you whether you state here that nobody else than guilty persons were ever executed by units under you command?
A. According to the reports which are submitted here, I was of the conviction that actually only guilty people were executed.
Q. This procedure was in direct contradiction to the order of Rasch asyou had received it in Zhitomir, is it not?
A. At least it is a very strong limitation asit were . At least after the order of August it was an absolute contradiction, yes.
Q. Did your refusal to carry out this order impair your career in the Gestapo?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I may ask you not to use the word "refusal" because I did not refuse to obey an order. To refuse to obey an order means to tell a superior officer: "I refuse to carry out this order." This I did not do. I, myself, looked for a way out, and I did find a way out. Because of this way out I was not reproached. That is right Whether this way out was ever found out at all, I am not able to say. But that I exercised the greatest restraint, this fact was well known.
Q. Wasit known then to your superiors, at least to a certain extent, that your activities in Russia had been a failure?
A. I must assume so, because as Streckenbach informed me, my discharge was carried out because I was not hard and severe enough.
Q. Who promoted your Oberfulner, Herr Schulz?
A. I presume that this was done on the suggestion of Office I.
Q. Antschef I was Streckenbach?
A. Was Streckenbach, yes.
Q. And it was Himmler who promoted you at the time there, is that not correct?
A. That is correct. Such promotions could only have been done by Himmler.
Q. Why?
A. I am afraid I cannot say that. That was a certain date of promotion, and I was promoted together with a number of other people.
Q. It is a question of memory. I introduce now Document 4957 This will be Prosecution Exhibit 176, Your Honors. Will you turn first to the last page. There are special remarks on the last page, handwritten. Defense counsel will be good enough to hand them out to you. and I will read them. It is obviously a remark made by you, is it not, this handwritten remark?
A. I don't know which remark you are referring to.
Q. The last remark. I will show it to you. It is better to take this. Here is the document. Do you have the document here? Is that your handwriting, Mr. Schulz?
A. Yes, it is my handwriting.
Q. I would like to quote: "From the beginning of 1931 I occupied a particularly confidential position with regard to the SS and also to the Kreis leadership of the NSDAP because of my position then as Referent in the Central Police Office of Bremen (Political police). My entrance into the Party only after 30 January 1933 resulted from the express wish of the then SS-Unit Leader." examination expressly why you did not join the Party earlier and asked you expressly about your reason, that you said that my contention was not correct?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, in this form the statement carries more weight than is actually the case, because such a close relationship was not really the case.
Q. will you look at Page 1 of the Document and now we shall find why you were promoted Senior Colonel? I quote: "I hereby promote you, effective 9 November 1941, to SS-Oberfuehrer because of outstanding service in the Einsatz." Will you tell the Tribunal, Mr. Schulz, whether the words "in the Einsatz" means your activity in the East?
A. That is possible, yes, but I do not think that if merits are talked about here that this only concerns the shootingof people. There were also other tasks, Mr. Prosecutor, which were my own task. The execution of people was an extraordinarily difficult subsidiary task which I carried out with extreme suffering, and I think I have explained that. I have gone into details about it, and God knows I did not take it easy, and I found a way of my own which perhaps not everybody would have found. The merit was in achieving, to secure the rear Army territory, if this has to be pointed out at all, not the shooting and execution of people wasthe merit.
Mr. HORLICK HOCHWALD: Tribunal before you did see the document. Before you had the document before you, you told the Tribunal, "I have not idea why I was promoted."
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
( A recess was taken unti 1345 hours.)