in Krasnogwardeisk. Did you know that that was a violation of a Hitler order?
A That I stopped It? In any case I stopped the order given at that time.
Q Tell us exactly how you did that. To whom did you speak? To whom did you give the order not to kill insane persons? fuehrer Dr, Roeder.
Q who was he?
A I beg your pardon?
Q what was his position?
Q What Kommando?
Q Was that an Army Kommando or an Einsatzkommando? What was it?
Q Was it a unit of the Army or a unit of the SS?
A No, it was a unit of the Security Police and SD. That was one of those special units which had been assigned to help the Army. Krasnogwardeisk? that these insane people should be killed because the building was requested as barracks.
Q Who had requested him to do that? Police and SD and tell them to kill people without consulting the highest officer of the Security Police and SD?
A In any case, it occurred as I have described it. Obviously this Army agency thought they had the authority to give an order to that kind of subordinate unit or else they would not have given it. was a unit of the Security Police and the SD and you were Commander in Chief of the Security Police and SD. It must have been a unit subordinated to you, is that correct? was one of these three kommandos which was in the territory of Einsatzkommando A and was active there. Police and SD and override an order of the Army, is that correct? that.
Q I am asking you about your authority. You have explained that the Army gave a unit of the Security Police and SD an order to kill people in Krasnogwardeisk; that you lifted that order and prevented those killings. Does that mean that you had authority over all units of the Security Police and SD, even to the extent of overriding an Army order? to tell this Army agency that I did not want such orders and refused to ask units to carry out such an order. It was up to the Army to tell them, whether they did not like it.
Q You say in any case you took the right. I am asking you, if you had the right by virtue of your position?
A I think it depends on what I said and did in that case; that must be the decisive matter, but in any case, the Army could have insisted on it inspite of me. The Army could have done it on their own as has been done in other cases and I could not have done anything about it and without even informing me about it. All that was possible. That depends on the circumstances.
to kill people without your consent, or over your objection? the Army order,is that correct?
AAm I responsible for that too, that I overrode my authority? I don't understand the question.
THE PRESIDENT: He is not charging you with any responsibility for it. He is merely asking you if you did override the authority of the Army. It is only a question of fact, not a question of responsibility.
THE WITNESS: Yes. complaints about you. Did the Army speak - say that they wanted that building and that you had gone over their order?
A.- I asked that I be told that if this agency insisted on that order, I asked them to inform me in that case. I would complain to the chief of the Army Group; that would have been the next step I would have taken if this Army agency, who was somehow subordinate to the Army had insisted on this. If the Chief of the Army Group had said "My unit was wrong. I revoke this." Everything would have been settled, but that never came about. One can't think of all the possibilities. That was enough for me.
Q.- Well, we'll leave the subject of your overriding the Army in Krasnogwardeisk and turn to something completely different. How many gas vans did the unit under your command have?
A.- I don't know anything about that.
Q.- If it says something in the reports about that, you'd regard it was misleading, wouldn't you?
A.- I don't know what reports are concerned.
Q.- You were the Commandant, the Commanding Officer, Commander in Chief of the Security Police and Security Service in Ostland were you not?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And you held that position on the 15th of June, 1942, is that correct?
A.- Yes.
Q.- You say you do not know anything about gas vans being part of your unit, is that correct? Let me refresh your memory.
A.- Yes.
Q.- I am going to give you a document, which is a photostatic copy of a message concerning gas vans, which state, I read from the English translation found in Document Book I, page 136. The Defense Counsel all have it. It was Prosecution Exhibit 32, Document 501-PS, page 136 of Document Book I. This document , signed by the Commandant of the Se curity Police and Security Service in Ostland by somebody else for him, which was you, states:
"A transport of jews, which has to be treated in a special way, arrives weekly at the office of the commandant of the Security Police and the Security Service of white Ruthenia."
"The three S-vans, which are there, are not sufficient for that purpose. I request assignment of another S-van (5 tons). At the same time I request the shipment of 20 gas hoses for the three S-vans on hand (2 Diamond, 1 Saurer), since the ones on hand are leaky already." Signed, "For the commandant of the Security Police and the Security Service, Ostland," which was you.
A.- That is the office.
Q.- That was your office, isn't that correct?
A.- That is the office.
Q.- Do you know anything about this?
A.- No, I have never seen this letter.
Q.- This is another illustration then of a report sent out of Berlin, or a document which we have, which is completely misleading and you don't know anything about it.
A.- Because the contents were not submitted, nor was the letter submitted to me.
Q.- Let me refresh your recollection perhaps.
THE PRESIDENT: Do we have affirmation that this is his office?
MR. FERENCZ: He has stated, Your Honor, that this is his office, Commander, or "Commandant," as it is here translated, "Of the Security Police and the Security Service, Ostland." That was your office, was it not?
THE WITNESS: Commander of the Security Police and the SD in the Ostland, yes.
Q.- Now, let me see if I can't refresh your recollection with another one of these misleading documents. I refer to page 137, the next page of Document Book I. Turn the page and there you see another top secret letter addressed to your office, Commandant of the Security Police and Security Service, Ostland, Riga, and here you see the reply to the cable which came from your office, or the letter which came from your office, and they say that the delivery of a 5-ton Saurer can be expected in the middle of next month and further on that 100 meters of hose will be supplied.
Does that remind you or does that bring to your mind
THE PRESIDENT: I don't locate that, Mr. Ferencz.
MR. FERENCZ: It is on page 137.
THE PRESIDENT: Of the English?
MR. FERENCZ: Of the English Document Book I. It is possible that the order of pages has been confused. If Your Honors like, I will come up and find it.
JUDGE DIXON: It's on page 136.
MR. FERENCZ: The pages may have been mised up, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see now.
Q. (By Mr. Ferencz): I am referring now to the reply to the top secret communication requesting additional gas vans and gas hoses and the reply which is addressed to your office during the time that you were in command states that they will deliver the gas vans, plus 100 meters of gas hose and I ask you do you now recall anything about gas vans in units under your command.
A.- The reply mentioned here, even if it has been received, was never shown to me personally or the sending out of a letter and the reply would have been treated by me in the proper manner.
Q.- Now, you are saying that you don't know anything about this, is that correct?
A.- No.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't quite understand the answer, the sending of the letter and the receipt of the reply would have been treated by me as always.
That is not clear to me. What do you mean by that?
THE WITNESS: The letter is not signed by me, and therefore was never submitted to me, because if I had seen it, I am sure that accordingding to what I have said already that I would have taken different steps and if I had received the reply and it would have been shown to me on that occasion I would have taken steps which I could not have done two or three weeks before.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know who it was that signed this letter on your behalf?
THE WITNESS: He did not sign it at my request, but is is the usual thing that the department chiefs as part of their tasks signed, "By order of", or, "At the request of"
THE PRESIDENT: I asked you if you know the person who signed in your behalf.
THE WITNESS: I know the person, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And did he have the authority to order equipment and receive equipment without conferring you, or informing you of the action?
THE WITNESS: He did not got the authority from me, nor did he discuss it with me.
THE PRESIDENT: Did he have the general authority to order equipment without your knowledge?
THE WITNESS: Within the Administration of the department of which he was in charge, he could request such things, which he thought he required for his department. This is one of those things which is not really within his normal sphere of tasks, within his department. because administration means that he had to deal with all those things.
THE PRESIDENT: I am asking you if he had the authority, did he have the authority to order equipment?
yes. ter? has never been discussed. He just assumed that authority. I could not have known anything about this.
Q Then he did this without the authority of anybody? him this authority; at least, I don't know that anybody else authorized him to do this.
Q Did you learn that the van then did arrive? that an answer was received, I have never seen a gas van. received?
A No. I was not told about this, neither by my adjutant, nor by my drivers, nor anyone. BY MR. FERENCZ: pletely misleading in that it would indicate that you were connected with gas vans - in some way, at least - whereas actually you knew nothing about it. Is that correct? That's true, isn't it? inaccurate reports in that they would indicate that you as the commander of the Security Police and SD were somehow connected with the requisitioning or distribution of gas vans - whereas actually you don't know anything about it?
Q Do you know where Salaspils is?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, would you mind suspending now while we take the afternoon recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, the Prosecution has no questions to the defendant Just.
DR. MAYER: ( for the defendant Steimle): Your Honor, I ask that the Tribunal grant that the defendant Steimle be excused from tomorrow morning's session, so that we can prepare his examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Steimle will be excused from attendance in Court tomorrow in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. MAYER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Any re-direct examination?
DR. SCHWARZ: ( for the defendant Jost): Yes, Your Honor. Prosecution referred to Document Book III-A, Document USSR-41, Exhibit 101, page 5 of the German text, page 3 in the English text. I must to the authencity of this document. It looks as if the case of this document it is a re-translation of a Russian document, a Russian document collection. I would like to have the Prosecution submit this document in its original.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, is the original available?
MR. FERENCZ: I don't know, your Honor, if the original is available. Grom the number, USSR-41, I judge to be an exhibit which was introduced before the IMT. I don't know whether our document room has the original or a photostatic copy, certified and signed by the finder of the document.
DR. SCHWARZ: Pardonme, Your Honor. I did not not the translation through the microphone. May I please ask Mr. Ferencz to repeat what he has said?
THE PRESIDENT: He is now looking for the document, or the phtostat of it.
MR. FERENZC: Your Honor, I have a photostat of the document bearing an official Russian seal. The document is in Russian and I don't find any German document the Russian photostat I have before me. However, this, as in all other document, is certified to have been captured German documents, and this was admissible before the International Military Tribunal. It has all the officials Russian seals,as well as I gather, and an International Military Tribunal number. This is the only available to us, and it is the best evidence we have on this point.
THE PRESIDENT: What you have is available to defense counsel for study, is it not?
MR. FERENCZ: Yes Your Honor. It is. This is the same exhibit as was introduced in Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Where are the originals of the documents which were presented before the IMT?
MR. FERENCZ: Those are in the archives of the IMT, but I believe that the document introduced is exactly the same as the one we have here. It is an official Russian report, and that was the document introduced before the IMT, and we have a photostat of that exhibit, exactly the same as it was introduced before the IMT.
THE PRESIDENT: But before the IMT the document itself was introduced. Here you have the photostat.
MR. FERENCZ: I believe, Your Honor, that the document itself that is, the official Russian report itself, was introduced before the IMT. And that may be available, If it is, of course, it is open to defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, would it be in this building?
MR. FERENCZ: Yes, your Honor, it would be in this building.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, will you assist Dr. Schwarz in attempting to locate the actual archive in which it may be filed?
MR. FERENCZ: Yes, Your Honor, I know where it would be filed, and we would be glad to give that information to defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Any other observation?
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I am agreeable to this suggestion, and I would like to reserve the right to raise my objection, and to keep it raised, until I have the possibility of examining the document.
THE PRESIDENT: Your objection, therefore, will be kept in mid-air until such time as you are able to descend to the ground again.
DR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. defendant Jost, but may I use this occasion to correct something in the transcript of the 14th of October 1947, the morning session, on page 594 of the German record the following is stated.... In this incident we are concerned with the examination of the defendant Ohlendorf by myself in cross-examination. May I briefly recapitulate the contents.
defendant Jost and this chief Mueller of Office-IV in the RSHA, and Mr. Walton raised an objection against my question stating: "Your Honor, I believe that the Indictment shows that of the time during which Jost was chief of an Einsatzgruppe was already after Mueller had died." The Prosecution, therefore, objected to questions which are concerned with the relationship between Jost and Mueller, since in the sense of the indictment this seemed to be irrelevant and, Your Honor, stated too that, if the time given by the Prosecution is correct, the objection is sustained. At that time I could not determine whether the assumption of the Prosecution that office chief Mueller had died by that time was correct, but in the meantime I found out that Mueller is still alive today. The objection of the Prosecution against my question is thus unfounded. May I ask that this be corrected in the record, sofar as the Prosecution remembers this.
MR. CLANCY: If it please the Tribunal, I am familiar with this. It was a bit of a slip of the tongue on the part of Mr. Walton. I am sure what he wanted to say was that Heydrich was at this time deceased, and that Mueller was alive. Perhaps it could be that Mr. Schwarz could tell us where Mueller is at this time?
DR. SCHWARZ: I unfortunately do not know that. I merely know that Mueller is alive.
THE COURT: The record will show that Heydrick is dead; that Mueller is alive and at large.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, since the questions I wanted to ask Ohlendorf were answered substantially when the objection of the Prosecution was raised, I do not want to waste the Tribunal's time, and, therefore, I shall do without the remaining questions which I intended to ask, after the matter which was important to me has been corrected.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. SCHWARZ: Now, Your Honor, I also would like to request since it has been impossible for me to do this as yet, to have the witnesses at the defendant Jost's disposal called, and I would like to have these witnesses called up into court as soon as possible after they have arrived I have called a number of witnesses; a number of these witnesses, their addresses not being available, will not appear, but sofar as it will be possible I will get affidavits from the remaining witnesses, and, I merely would like to reserve the right to call those witnesses to the witness stand from whom I can not get affidavits.
I believe I agree with the Tribuanl, if, in the interest of speeding up the proceedings, I see to it that the witnesses be called at about at the same time, and one after the other, and I shall then get in touch with the Prosecution and the Tribunal in this matter when the time comes, in order to set a definite date for the appearances of the witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. You have a number of things floating in midair, so we will add this one to those passengers.
DR. SCHWARZ: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Witness, I would like to direct your attention again to your affidavit of July 27th, this year, in which you say you did not give any orders to execute Jews and so on. June 27th, 1947, when you say: "I instructed my kommando leaders not to carry out any executions." You first learned of this order on March 29 1942. Did you call in your kommando leaders and tell them, "I have learned of an order with which I do not agree, and I am telling you now not to execute this order." Is that what you did? matter with him, and told him "I hoped that we shall be able to have this order revoked in the Eastland. For the moment please refrain from such measure in this area." In a similar manner I talked to the commander in Latvia, and then I spoke to the commander in Estonia. One after the other.
with which you did not agree, and that they should suspend any execution of that order until you contacted them again? known to me. I was new, and at that time, as I have already stated, there was a certain stoppage for reasons of labor allocations, they had not carried out the fuehrer order completely. Now I want to see to it that the order was stopped completely, because I was hoping by these words of Heydrich about the re-settlement, that the order would be revoked for the Eastland.
Q Yes. Did you tell these leaders not to talk about what you had stated to them?
A No, I didn't. Himmler, or your commanding officer, and as the result of that report could you have been subject immediately to a courtmartial?
A It could have been possible, if one of these people didn't agree with me, that he saw sabotage in my request, bur from the manner of my description I don't think that one of these leaders intended to denounce me.
Q And they didn't denounce you?
Q Yes. So then it was possible in the German Armed Forces to refuse to obey an order and not be shot immediately? any such refusal would become known to a superior, then the consequences were evident. this importance, one which came from the Fuehrer himself; it was possible to talk about it over an extended area, which included three countries, and, yet, the refusal to obey the order not come to the attention of the originator of the order, and those who passed it along?
see at the beginning of a war.
Q But this happened in your case? Order existed, and inspite of the existence of the Fuehrer order, the order was not completely carried out, and even though it was for reasons of labor allocation, still such reason existed; that was the special situation in which I was. compelled others to act didn't compel you to act?
Q No, I just asked you a simple question. A very vital order and an important order, which compelled all others to act didn't compel you to act in this particular case? when the complete Heydrich order arrived, then a new situation arose. May, when you received a written order executions were suspended because of your attitude, and what you had told the kommando leaders under you? Fuehrer Order was in general not executed completely. I had no influence over this fact. This happened before my appearance there. This explained the fact which was described before, why other SS leaders just didn't say, why didn't you shoot everybody here, for this was possible this had nothing to do with my person. It was not very conspicuous that the Jews, who had been left there for the past six or eight months, and continued to live, this was not conspicuous. April?
safe?
Q What kind of a safe did you have?
Q Did,you carry it with you as you travelled? You were a mobie outfit, you moved around?
A No, no, this was a formal established agency. Riga was a permanent agency. It was stationary there.
Q I don't mean this was a "vest-pocedt" safe which you could carry on your person? you had received the written order? mentioned Refierungsrat, otherwise, I did not talk about this order, for I had decided for the time being to speak to Heydrich.
Q Yes. Now you saw Heydrich on May 22nd?
Q Then for three weeks this order went unexecuted?
Q And no one raised any objection?
Q It didn't come to the attention of any one that you had received this very vital order and you had refused to act on it? from those two above mentioned people.
Q Only Heydrich personally?
A Yes, who else could have known about it?
Q Well, the chain of command would have included somebody else?
Q Heydrich personally sent you this order. He wrote this order with his own hand, and sent it to you. He didn't send it through an adjutant, or through some intermediary office? personally, and was sent to me by Heydrich's courier, together with other mail. of the highest ranking officers in the Reich, and you paid no attention to it - - you did not execute it?
Q Well, you did not execute the order?
A I didn't pass it on because I reported to him.
Q You reported to him sometime - - on May 22nd?
Q Yes, for three weeks you didn't execute the order?
A That is right, I didn't pass it on, and I didn't execute it.
Q Then you conversed with Heydrich?
Q And then fortunately for you, from what you told us, he was killed?
A Yes, right. Not only for me. *---*u for not executing the order? *---*lat I would be recalled, and probably, if I understand it correctly, I *---*ould have been transferred to the troops. That would have been the end *---*f that, outside of the fact that something else might have happened, but *---*nfortunately for me, the assassination did come in.
Q Yes. And so far this order still went unexecuted, sofar as you *---*were concerned?
Q Yes. Then on August 22, or between August 22nd and the 26th you spoke to Himmler? August, you still kept this order locked up in your safe? Police officials above you?
Q Yes, continued to exist?
Q Yes. How long have you been a soldier. How long were you a soldier up to this time?
Q What? German Arm forces is implicit obedience? violate the first principles of a soldier, which is obedienoe? about five months, you did not obey an order which was issued to you by a superior officer?
Q And nothing happened to you? You were not even courtmartialed?
THE PRESIDENT: Have I been talking all this time without speaking with the microphone open.
THE INTERPRETER: No, but the microphone seems to be out of order.
THE PRESIDENT: I hope I have not been talking to myself?
THE INTERPRETER: No, sir, I got everything. But what was your last remark, I didn't get that?
THE PRESIDENT: I said I hope I have not been talking to myself during all of this time. you had put to naught this cardinal, essential, revered principle of the German Armed forces, that obedience is the first law of a soldier?
A I didn't pass on the order, and, therefore, I violated obedience, yes, that is right.
Q Ve ry well. In yyour testimony this afternoon you referred to a precedent for an extermination of a race by recalling the Armenian massacres. I didn't quite couch the purposes of that allusion. Did you mean that if Turkey could do it, that Germany could do it. Is that what you meant by that comparison? order to determine whether similar examples had happened, and all these statements always lead back to the fact that at other times this was done, if you look at the history of the middle ages, you will find the same thing, that is why I thought of this. recollection, and, therefore, justified the order? the Hitler-Himmler-Heydrich order to execute all Jews? time ago, I never understood this episode, and it seems to me it was a terrible tragedy, which hit the little people of Armenia who were defenseless. you historically recalled the Armenian massacre, that you in your own mind condemned the action of those who had exterminated the Armenians?
not understand it. and contrary to the laws of civilization? modern history.
Q They were both wrong, the Armenian massacre?
Q And this Heydrich massacre?
Q The Himmler-Heydrich massacre. Very well. How many vehicles - - first, let me ask you, how many men were in your Einsatzgruppe? men, and in the area of the Kommando there were three-hundred men, and, altogether, in the entire area there were somewhat about - - more than five-hundred people, of the German personnel.
Q Yes. How many vehicles did you have? merely according to what the different agencies needed, and I could only estimate it very roughly.
Q Let's have your rough estimate? hundred and ten. I simply don't know.
Q Yes. Well, could it not have been correct to say more than onehundred? today. you to have much more than one-hundred vehicles?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.