THE PRESIDENT: Well, would it be in this building?
MR. FERENCZ: Yes, your Honor, it would be in this building.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, will you assist Dr. Schwarz in attempting to locate the actual archive in which it may be filed?
MR. FERENCZ: Yes, Your Honor, I know where it would be filed, and we would be glad to give that information to defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Any other observation?
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I am agreeable to this suggestion, and I would like to reserve the right to raise my objection, and to keep it raised, until I have the possibility of examining the document.
THE PRESIDENT: Your objection, therefore, will be kept in mid-air until such time as you are able to descend to the ground again.
DR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. defendant Jost, but may I use this occasion to correct something in the transcript of the 14th of October 1947, the morning session, on page 594 of the German record the following is stated.... In this incident we are concerned with the examination of the defendant Ohlendorf by myself in cross-examination. May I briefly recapitulate the contents.
defendant Jost and this chief Mueller of Office-IV in the RSHA, and Mr. Walton raised an objection against my question stating: "Your Honor, I believe that the Indictment shows that of the time during which Jost was chief of an Einsatzgruppe was already after Mueller had died." The Prosecution, therefore, objected to questions which are concerned with the relationship between Jost and Mueller, since in the sense of the indictment this seemed to be irrelevant and, Your Honor, stated too that, if the time given by the Prosecution is correct, the objection is sustained. At that time I could not determine whether the assumption of the Prosecution that office chief Mueller had died by that time was correct, but in the meantime I found out that Mueller is still alive today. The objection of the Prosecution against my question is thus unfounded. May I ask that this be corrected in the record, sofar as the Prosecution remembers this.
MR. CLANCY: If it please the Tribunal, I am familiar with this. It was a bit of a slip of the tongue on the part of Mr. Walton. I am sure what he wanted to say was that Heydrich was at this time deceased, and that Mueller was alive. Perhaps it could be that Mr. Schwarz could tell us where Mueller is at this time?
DR. SCHWARZ: I unfortunately do not know that. I merely know that Mueller is alive.
THE COURT: The record will show that Heydrick is dead; that Mueller is alive and at large.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, since the questions I wanted to ask Ohlendorf were answered substantially when the objection of the Prosecution was raised, I do not want to waste the Tribunal's time, and, therefore, I shall do without the remaining questions which I intended to ask, after the matter which was important to me has been corrected.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. SCHWARZ: Now, Your Honor, I also would like to request since it has been impossible for me to do this as yet, to have the witnesses at the defendant Jost's disposal called, and I would like to have these witnesses called up into court as soon as possible after they have arrived I have called a number of witnesses; a number of these witnesses, their addresses not being available, will not appear, but sofar as it will be possible I will get affidavits from the remaining witnesses, and, I merely would like to reserve the right to call those witnesses to the witness stand from whom I can not get affidavits.
I believe I agree with the Tribuanl, if, in the interest of speeding up the proceedings, I see to it that the witnesses be called at about at the same time, and one after the other, and I shall then get in touch with the Prosecution and the Tribunal in this matter when the time comes, in order to set a definite date for the appearances of the witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. You have a number of things floating in midair, so we will add this one to those passengers.
DR. SCHWARZ: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Witness, I would like to direct your attention again to your affidavit of July 27th, this year, in which you say you did not give any orders to execute Jews and so on. June 27th, 1947, when you say: "I instructed my kommando leaders not to carry out any executions." You first learned of this order on March 29 1942. Did you call in your kommando leaders and tell them, "I have learned of an order with which I do not agree, and I am telling you now not to execute this order." Is that what you did? matter with him, and told him "I hoped that we shall be able to have this order revoked in the Eastland. For the moment please refrain from such measure in this area." In a similar manner I talked to the commander in Latvia, and then I spoke to the commander in Estonia. One after the other.
with which you did not agree, and that they should suspend any execution of that order until you contacted them again? known to me. I was new, and at that time, as I have already stated, there was a certain stoppage for reasons of labor allocations, they had not carried out the fuehrer order completely. Now I want to see to it that the order was stopped completely, because I was hoping by these words of Heydrich about the re-settlement, that the order would be revoked for the Eastland.
Q Yes. Did you tell these leaders not to talk about what you had stated to them?
A No, I didn't. Himmler, or your commanding officer, and as the result of that report could you have been subject immediately to a courtmartial?
A It could have been possible, if one of these people didn't agree with me, that he saw sabotage in my request, bur from the manner of my description I don't think that one of these leaders intended to denounce me.
Q And they didn't denounce you?
Q Yes. So then it was possible in the German Armed Forces to refuse to obey an order and not be shot immediately? any such refusal would become known to a superior, then the consequences were evident. this importance, one which came from the Fuehrer himself; it was possible to talk about it over an extended area, which included three countries, and, yet, the refusal to obey the order not come to the attention of the originator of the order, and those who passed it along?
see at the beginning of a war.
Q But this happened in your case? Order existed, and inspite of the existence of the Fuehrer order, the order was not completely carried out, and even though it was for reasons of labor allocation, still such reason existed; that was the special situation in which I was. compelled others to act didn't compel you to act?
Q No, I just asked you a simple question. A very vital order and an important order, which compelled all others to act didn't compel you to act in this particular case? when the complete Heydrich order arrived, then a new situation arose. May, when you received a written order executions were suspended because of your attitude, and what you had told the kommando leaders under you? Fuehrer Order was in general not executed completely. I had no influence over this fact. This happened before my appearance there. This explained the fact which was described before, why other SS leaders just didn't say, why didn't you shoot everybody here, for this was possible this had nothing to do with my person. It was not very conspicuous that the Jews, who had been left there for the past six or eight months, and continued to live, this was not conspicuous. April?
safe?
Q What kind of a safe did you have?
Q Did,you carry it with you as you travelled? You were a mobie outfit, you moved around?
A No, no, this was a formal established agency. Riga was a permanent agency. It was stationary there.
Q I don't mean this was a "vest-pocedt" safe which you could carry on your person? you had received the written order? mentioned Refierungsrat, otherwise, I did not talk about this order, for I had decided for the time being to speak to Heydrich.
Q Yes. Now you saw Heydrich on May 22nd?
Q Then for three weeks this order went unexecuted?
Q And no one raised any objection?
Q It didn't come to the attention of any one that you had received this very vital order and you had refused to act on it? from those two above mentioned people.
Q Only Heydrich personally?
A Yes, who else could have known about it?
Q Well, the chain of command would have included somebody else?
Q Heydrich personally sent you this order. He wrote this order with his own hand, and sent it to you. He didn't send it through an adjutant, or through some intermediary office? personally, and was sent to me by Heydrich's courier, together with other mail. of the highest ranking officers in the Reich, and you paid no attention to it - - you did not execute it?
Q Well, you did not execute the order?
A I didn't pass it on because I reported to him.
Q You reported to him sometime - - on May 22nd?
Q Yes, for three weeks you didn't execute the order?
A That is right, I didn't pass it on, and I didn't execute it.
Q Then you conversed with Heydrich?
Q And then fortunately for you, from what you told us, he was killed?
A Yes, right. Not only for me. *---*u for not executing the order? *---*lat I would be recalled, and probably, if I understand it correctly, I *---*ould have been transferred to the troops. That would have been the end *---*f that, outside of the fact that something else might have happened, but *---*nfortunately for me, the assassination did come in.
Q Yes. And so far this order still went unexecuted, sofar as you *---*were concerned?
Q Yes. Then on August 22, or between August 22nd and the 26th you spoke to Himmler? August, you still kept this order locked up in your safe? Police officials above you?
Q Yes, continued to exist?
Q Yes. How long have you been a soldier. How long were you a soldier up to this time?
Q What? German Arm forces is implicit obedience? violate the first principles of a soldier, which is obedienoe? about five months, you did not obey an order which was issued to you by a superior officer?
Q And nothing happened to you? You were not even courtmartialed?
THE PRESIDENT: Have I been talking all this time without speaking with the microphone open.
THE INTERPRETER: No, but the microphone seems to be out of order.
THE PRESIDENT: I hope I have not been talking to myself?
THE INTERPRETER: No, sir, I got everything. But what was your last remark, I didn't get that?
THE PRESIDENT: I said I hope I have not been talking to myself during all of this time. you had put to naught this cardinal, essential, revered principle of the German Armed forces, that obedience is the first law of a soldier?
A I didn't pass on the order, and, therefore, I violated obedience, yes, that is right.
Q Ve ry well. In yyour testimony this afternoon you referred to a precedent for an extermination of a race by recalling the Armenian massacres. I didn't quite couch the purposes of that allusion. Did you mean that if Turkey could do it, that Germany could do it. Is that what you meant by that comparison? order to determine whether similar examples had happened, and all these statements always lead back to the fact that at other times this was done, if you look at the history of the middle ages, you will find the same thing, that is why I thought of this. recollection, and, therefore, justified the order? the Hitler-Himmler-Heydrich order to execute all Jews? time ago, I never understood this episode, and it seems to me it was a terrible tragedy, which hit the little people of Armenia who were defenseless. you historically recalled the Armenian massacre, that you in your own mind condemned the action of those who had exterminated the Armenians?
not understand it. and contrary to the laws of civilization? modern history.
Q They were both wrong, the Armenian massacre?
Q And this Heydrich massacre?
Q The Himmler-Heydrich massacre. Very well. How many vehicles - - first, let me ask you, how many men were in your Einsatzgruppe? men, and in the area of the Kommando there were three-hundred men, and, altogether, in the entire area there were somewhat about - - more than five-hundred people, of the German personnel.
Q Yes. How many vehicles did you have? merely according to what the different agencies needed, and I could only estimate it very roughly.
Q Let's have your rough estimate? hundred and ten. I simply don't know.
Q Yes. Well, could it not have been correct to say more than onehundred? today. you to have much more than one-hundred vehicles?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q. (By the President) So that if any unusual equipment came into your Einsatzgruppe it would be likely for you to notice this unusual equipment, considering that you had a limited number of vehicles?
A. Yes, I would notice that.
Q. How was it that you didn't notice this murder van which came, this gas van?
A. I don't even know whether it ever arrived. I didn't see it and no one ever told me about it.
Q. You read the correspondence about the gas van, did you not?
A. No, I did not see it.
Q. You read it here today?
A. Yes, here I saw it.
Q. You do not doubt the authenticity of those letters, do you?
A. I didn't examine them that carefully.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you quickly show him those letters again?
THE WITNESS: Looking at the photostat one can see no proof of the fact that it is not authentic, at least I can't see anything.
Q. (By the President) Now, the letter requesting the additional gas van states that your Einsatzgruppe already has three vans, but they are not sufficient for the purpose intended, and the purpose is quite obvious. A request is madefor another van, and the letter of June 22nd says that this 5 - ton van will arrive the middle of the following month, which would be in July while you were still the commander of Einsatzgruppe A. Now, are we to understand that although your Einsatzgruppe had four gas vans, vans which were equipped to kill people by a very ingenious device, although you had this most extraordinary equipment, that yet it did not come to your attention?
A. In any case I did not see the letter. That is an absolute fact. I just didn't see it.
Q. Let's forget about the letters. I am speaking now of the vans . These vans were especially equipped to treat Jews in a special way.
The original letter speaks of a transport of Jews arriving weekly. Now, that isn't an incident which could be bery easily overlooked, transports of human beings arriving and being gassed to death in certain types of equipment. All this constitutes a series of events which would not be easily over looked or not noticed by the commander of an operation who has his wits about him.
A. Apart from these letters I did not receive any reports that such transports of Jews were brought in. One single time they spoke about Jewish transports from white Ruthenia, but it was said because of the partisan situation no transports could be brought through.
Q. It says,"A transport of Jews, which has to be treated in a special way, arrives weekly at the office of the Commandant of the Security Police and Security Service of White Ruthenia." Here we have this most extraordinary spectacle of a transport of human beings arriving and being systematically fed to gas vans and there being liquidated. Now, this extraordinary situation in no way came to your attention although you were the commanding officer?
A. No, it did not become known to me.
Q. And although then the equipment was increased to four vans and you only had as many as one hundred vehicles, yet you did not know of these four gas vans which were used for the purpose of exterminating human beings, you did not know that?
A. If it was not reported to me and cannot suspect these things, then I cannot know them.
Q. You made inspections from time to time, I take it?
A. Yes, but nothing was said to me about gas vans and nothing was shown to me.
Q. You inspected your equipment from time to time, did you not?
A. No, I didn't inspect vehicles in detail.
Q. What kind of a Major General are you that you were conducting an operation and yet are not familiar with your equipment and its state of repair?
A. If they don't tell me anything about these vans I can't know it; I didn't see them.
Q. Did you inspect your equipment from time to time?
A. The vehicles, if I came to the garage yes, I looked at them.
Q. And if these gas vans had been there you would have observed them if you inspected the equipment, would you not?
A. If they had been there I would have had to see them, yes.
Q. So therefore we come back to the proposition that you questioned these letters.
A. I said I cannot see anything from looking at the photostat that they are not genuine.
Q. Very well. If the letters are genuine then your Einsatzgruppe would have three gas vans and ordered a fourth one, and the communications indicate that the fourth one would be delivered the middle of July.
A. It says in the letter that the gas vans were to go to White Ruthenia. That is, it is to a certain locality and not to the Einsatzgruppe, not even to the place where I was.
Q. Well, but you had command of that area, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Then we will sum it all up by saying this, that although you were an officer in the German Army, and although you had been a soldier for many years, yet you did not inspect your equipment and you were free to ignore orders which came to you from the highestranking officer in your organization.
A. I don't know what is more difficult, to live under this pressure for four months or to say this today. It would be easier not to say it today, and it would have been better for me at the time to act differently and not to make these efforts for months to achieve a different goal. I have said it day before yesterday, that I did not act this Way because my inner feelings forced me to act that way, and the realization of what would befall all these victims , not only the Jews, but that this would have terrible consequences, that something would have to be done against it.
That was my conviction.
Q. You are making a comparison between that period and the stress under which you find yourself today, and do we understand from that comparison that you are wondering now whether it might not have been easier for you to have executed the order and not find yourself in a position here on a witness stand admitting that you refused to obey an order, is that what we are to believe?
A. No.
Q. Then I don't understand why you made the reference to the great difficulty you have been having at the present time.
A. No, I wanted to say that at the time it was terribly difficult to make this attempt to swim against the stream, and that today it is very difficult to describe it in the manner it happened, especially since those people who knew about it and who were there are not to be found today. That is my misfortune. If the people whom I mentioned to my lawyer and who know about this affair were to be found then they can confirm it without any question. I have said that to my Lawyers,they know that for, that was a fact which I could not tell to a hundred people. Only a few could know about it.
Q. Very well.
A. That is why I asked that these witnesses be looked for, and I ask once more to look for them so that these things can be confirmed.
Q. Well, we can't find Reinhardt Heydrich for you but we might be able to locate Mueller.
A. No, I ask for Landgraf and Nyhogen and Jadeke . These are the three men who know about the situation.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II-A.
Military Tribunal II-A is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Schwarz, are you ready to proceed?
DR. SCHWARZ: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have anything further to present in the case of defendant Jost at this time?
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I have no redirect examination to put to the defendant. May I say only what I have already said yesterday that I reserve the right to call the witnesses later on, as soon as they have arrived here.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the defendant Jost will now be taken back to the defendant's dock.
DR. SCHWARZ: May I ask that the defendant Jost be excused from this afternoon's session.
THE PRESIDENT: For what reason?
DR. SCHWARZ: I Would like to discuss with the defendant the affidavits which yet have to be taken.
THE PRESIDENT: For the reasons indicated by defense counsel, the defendant Jost will be excused from attendance in Court this afternoon.
DR. SCHWARZ: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ulmer, are you ready to proceed with the defendant Six?
DR. ULMER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the defendant Six will be escorted to the witness stand.
FRANZ SIX, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE DIXON: Hold up your right hand and repeat after me: the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE DIXON: You may be seated.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY DR. ULMER:
Q. I ask the defendant - what is your name?
A. My name is Franz Alfred Six.
Q. Please give your data.
A. I was born on the 12th of August 1909 in Mannheim. I attended the Gymnasium - High School - and graduated in 1930. From 1930 to 1934 I studied social and policical science, history, at the University of Heidelberg.
Q. Did you only study at Heidelberg?
A. Heidelberg was the German school of Socialogy. I got to know teachers and personalities which impressed me very deeply. They gave me an extensive knowledge in the entire theory of political science and sociology, and above all, they gave me a picture of the modern world state.
Q. Was Heidelberg in this respect of great importance for your future career?
A. Yes; in Heidelberg there was the first Institute for teaching foreign political science.
Q. Please describe this Institute.
A. It was an Institute for comparative political science and sociology. It gave me an interest in the study of political science and to set up a teaching institute, that is to say, the way it had already existed for a long time in the Anglo-Saxon countries.
Q. These interests which were aroused in you in Heidelberg could you make use of them and realize them after your studies?
A. No. It was clear to me that if I wanted to take up a scholastic career I first had to pass the prescribed examination.
Q. What examination did you pass?
A. In the year 1934 I passed my PhD at the University of Heidelberg. In the fall of the same year I took up a teaching position at the University of Koenigsberg, and at the same time I took the press position and publicity directorship in the German Students Association. In the year 1936 I passed degree of Dr. Phil. That is, a higher doctor's degree than the previous one, and got another degree at the University of Koenigsberg. As a result of these examinations, in the year 1936 I became a lecturer, and in the year 1938 I became a professor in the faculty for law and political science, at the University of Koenigsberg. In the year 1939 I was transferred to the University of Berlin.
Q. Didn't you pass an examination in Leipzig?
A. Yes, that was the Venia Legendi.
Q. You said Koenigsberg; you meant Leipzig?
A. Yes.
Q. What professorship did you receive in Berlin...to which professorship were you called?
A. In Berlin I received the chain for foreign political science anf for external politics. I taught general political science, the history of the European powers, the history of world politics, and world states, and history of diplomacy and foreign policies.
Q. Did this mean the realization of your plan made at Heidelberg to extend these political sciences?
A. Yes, in Berlin I was able to realize this.
Q. In how far?
A. In Berlin there were two semi-academic institutes, a University for political science, and the Semi-academic institute for foreign policies. I made them into full academic institutes, and incorporated them as a faculty of political science into the University of Berlin. I was the first Dean of this faculty in Berlin.
Q. And the educational aim of this faculty, - what was it?
A. The educational aim of this institute of foreign politics was the training of a number of highly qualified people for all the private and official agencies of the Reich in foreign countries. This education took place in three branches. A branch for international law, a branch for world economics and foreign trade, and a branch for cultural history and philosophy. Everyone of these branches was connected with the study of a special country and its language. Outside of this educational aim I aimed at the education of Germans who could think internationally, whom we had not yet known how to create since the beginning of the Reich. Above all, this new type of German was to see that Germany was led away from its intellectual isolation and to see to it that the prejudices against Germany were lifted.
Q. You were the Dean?
A. That is right.
Q. And how was your faculty composed?
A. The faculty included the best specialists from the German universities. These experts had been visiting professors for years, or even for decades, at the leading universities of foreign countries. Thus they had knowledge of the international situation. They had formed their own political opinion, and for a great part they had reservations about National Socialism.
Q. Was one of the educational aims of this faculty the training of the diplomatic service?
A. Originally not. The Foreign Office under State Secretary Luther had its own school for the training of diplomats, but it had not proceeded with its plans. For this reason in the year 1942 I was given the task by the Foreign Office to take over the planning and the training of people for the Diplomatic Service. I was to carry out this training within this faculty of international politics.
Q. This was then an additional task for you as a university professor?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you serve in any other capacity in the Foreign Office?
A. Yes, the development for total war made the drafting of many age groups as attaches of the Foreign Service - made that impossible for the duration of the war. The tranining for the diplomatic service, therefore, was postponed for the duration of the war. For this reason I was offered the direction of the cultural political branch. This I directed from 1943 on.
Q. Was it customary that a university professor took over the direction of the cultural branch of the Foreign Office?
A. No, since the establishment of the cultural branch in the Foreign Office in the year 1920, it had become a tradition to take scholars and university professors and make them directors of a cultural branch.
Q. What were the missions of this cultural political branch?
A. The cultural branch had the direction and administration of German cultural organizations in foreign countries, that is to say, of the German schools, of the German scientific institutes, of the German language institutes of the German visiting professors, etc. Outside of that, the whole cultural exchange program under this branch, that is, in the fields of poetry, of science, of the theater, of music, of the fine arts, and of the film. As war missions there was added the translation and dissemination of German writings in foreign countries, especially of the papers and document books.
Q. This, then was a mission which one could only give you, and which you could only assume on the basis of your scholastic capacity?
A. Well, as I have already said, My predecessors were mostly scholars and university professors. The difficult and complicated relations with the scholars in the Reich and in foreign countries made it seem feasible to have scholars as directors of this branch.
Q. What rank did you hold in the Foreign Office?
A. After assuming this cultural political branch I became an Envoy, First Class.
For this purpose I gave up my professorship and continued my lectures as an honorary professor.
Q. That is the some activity as a professor, only you did not have the possibility to be a regular professor because of your official activities, and you were forced to become honorary professor?
A. Yes, the duties were the same, but the official duties changed. This was a normal, a customary prescription in the former German administration system.
Q. How long did you direct the cultural political branch?
A. I directed this branch until the capitulation.
Q. And now your Party dates, place.
A. Member of the Nazi Party in the year 1930. Membership in the Student League of the SA, November 1932. Member of the SD and SS in the year 1935. Chief of office in the RSHA in 1939.
Q. Your personnel file is here.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, it is Document 4807, Prosecution Exhibit 126, Book III-B, page 145 in the German text. I don't know the page number in the English text.
THE PRESIDENT: We have it. 79.
DR. ULMER: Page 79 in the English text.
Q. (By Dr. Ulmer) In this personnel file you are listed as chief of office as your official position.