A. I already said that I would have pointed to my particular profession and that thus the acceptance and the carrying out of such an order could not he asked of me. I believe that after what I have experienced, namely, when I had the conference with Heydrich on the 5th of May, 1941, and during the conferences with Thomas, that in this case, one would have left me well enough alone, in other words, that one would have had consideration for me. If matters had been different, then, for a man who not only by name but really in his heart believes in God, there is only one thing left. He must obey God more than any human beings. I would have had to take the consequences.
Q. But you must explain one thing to us. Your comrades partly knew about the killing order and received it. How do you explain and can you explain it at all that you did not receive the extermination order?
A. Here in Nurnberg, I, of course, thought about this matter. I can only explain this matter as follows: In the area of Rostov and vicinity there were no Jews, outside of a few individuals, and therefore the passing on of this order to me was no longer necessary. It is not impossible that my profession, which Thomas had remembered, was the reason why he did not give me such an order, since the order had no importance in my area and since he knew that I wanted to leave anyway pretty soon. Furthermore, the order was secret and there was a general directive -- I think it was an express Fuehrer Order which had been laid down in written form -- that only so many people should know about secret matters as was absolutely necessary. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, do you think that a secret order becomes so secret that it isn't even transmitted to the person who is to execute the order?
A. I have already said that I had the impression that there were no Jews there.
Q. Well, that's the reason you give.
A. Yes, I gave that as the first reason.
Q. And another reason is that Thomas was very much concerned about your religious background. That's also a reason.
A. Yes, these are the possibilities and I do not know what caused Thomas to act the way he did. These are only the thoughts which I thought over here in Nurnberg.
Q. Didn't occur to you, while you are thinking about that subject, that, if Thomas was disinclined to pass on the order to execute Jews out of deference to your religious background that he also would have done something to relieve you of the duty of conducting any kind of an execution?
A. He did so by the fact that he sent me Sturmbannfuehrer Nehring.
Q. Well, would he not then have seen to it that you would not be required to witness an execution?
A. I attended them in order to get to know the activities of the kommando, as Thomas had ordered and then to report to him my impressions.
Q. Well, Thomas ordered you to witness an execution?
A. No, Thomas ordered me at that time in September to go to the kommando and then after inspecting matters, to report to him and tell him about my impressions.
Q. Then you witnessed an execution of your own free will?
A. Yes, because of the assignment which had been given to me.
Q. Well, did he order you to witness an execution?
A. No, not specifically, but if Dr. Thomas tells me that I should describe to him my impressions, that is, to give him a report about what I felt, then that includes my looking at things down to the last detail, even looking at an execution, for otherwise, my report would be wrong.
Q. Then did you make a report on the execution?
A. I told him about what I had seen, yes.
Q. And did you tell him how you felt?
A. Yes, I explained to him, as I have already said, that all these matters, the sentences and the executions, were against my feelings.
Q. You didn't know that before you witnessed the execution that you would have a feeling of revulsion against the execution. You didn't feel that before you actually witnessed the execution?
A. Of course not, Your Honor, for before I had never seen an execution.
Q. So you had to see an execution in order to know that it offended against your sentiments?
A. Yes, I had to see what kind of an effect this would have on me.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you've already told us that you only heard once about Jewish executions. That was in June, 1943, during your stay in Kiew in connection with crimes such as arson and explosions.
A. Yes, that is what was mentioned to me.
Q. Did you also hear about the executions of Jewish women and children?
A. No, at that time nothing was said about this and I heard nothing about it.
Q. What activity did you carry out in Rostov?
A. I already mentioned that the inspection of the work in the Offices 1, 2, and 3 had been given to me. My activity included the actual command of the kommando, especially to represent the kommando's interests to the other agencies, especially towards the German and Rumanian armies. I did not detail any liaison officer for this purpose, but I took care of this activity myself. Thus almost daily I had discussions with the G-2 of the Army area Don, especially when the military situation became very serious around Rostov. That is, when the withdrawals of the Army started. I also assisted the administration officer in the care and the supply questions of the kommando by negotiating with the military agencies. I also had connections with G-2 of the German Liaison Staff with the Rumanian Army in Rostov. I also was the disciplinary superior of all men in the kommando. As such, I was in charge of the personal files of the men, that is, recommendations and judging their type of service and taking care of their individual matters by conferring with them personally These jobs were the special duty of the kommando leader.
Q. Did you have anything to do in reference to administration?
A. Yes, of course. I was the only one who could sign papers. In addition, the kommando had two agricultural estates which had to be administered. One was a small estate with an orchard. It was to be a rest area for German combat troops in the Einsatzgruppe C and had to be arranged for that purpose. Since the Army wanted to use this place for its purposes also, there were often long negotiations with the various agencies. The other was an estate of 1,000 hectars with agriculture and live stock for whose upkeep and maintenance the kommando was responsible.
Q. Witness, did you have anything to do with the future civil administration of Rostov or its reorganization into a future civil administration?
A. Yes, as Dr. Thomas told me, and as the presence of the future SS and Police Leaders in Rostov showed.
Q. Please give the name.
A. Haencke. The taking over of this area by the civil administration was at hand. In order to have the necessary material for the civil administration about the various problems in that area, various extensive investigations and reports had to be made out. These extended to the presence of certain ethnic groups and to their political espectations, as, for example, in this area, the Russian-Germans, who were very small in number, but especially the Cossacks and then the Armenians and the Karaims. Furthermore, the investigations extended to the presence of cultural institutions, such as schools, universities, technical schools, libraries --
Q. That is sufficient.
A. And of grest interest was the presence of Russian scholars from the Pre-Bolchevist time. I had the opportunity to speak to such scholars of former European repute and to receive them in my office. Their condition impressed me deeply and to see to it that their old activity were again taken up under the German Army.
In this connection there was a Russian professor who already served for the Reichsfuehrer SS who had a special mission to excavate graves of the Goths from the time of the Eastern Gothic king Ermanerich, whose empire once extended down to the Volga River. He was with my kommando and received German supplies. One day before Christmas 20 trucks appeared at my agency in Rostov with the mission from the Reichsfuehrer to go to the Museum in Novotscherkask and transport it to Western Russia. Since this was the Don Cossack Museum, which was considered a sacred national symbol by the Don Cossaks, I sent a teletype to the Reichsfuehrer SS where I spoke of a positive cultural cooperation with the Don Cossacks and I asked that this be reconsidered. The instruction came down that the Museum was to remain in Novotscherkask. Then there were reports about the existence factories, about mines, food supplies, and about the ability to carry on with these factories, and also about hospital and medical facilities.
A. .......and then Prof. Brandt gave me the mission .....
Q. The details are not interesting, witness. This is sufficient. Just proceed.
A. -- Reports about agriculture, about institutions, about rubber plants, then the food situation among the civilian population; as an example I might give, that after a conference with me the Army decided not to forbid the black market in Rostov, since through it more food got into the city than if the German troops had attempted to bring food to Rostov on their vehicles. All these things I had to deal with, since the actual SD export of the kommando, that is, the Chief III was in close collaboration with the garrison headquarters and was occupied almost exclusively with the building of a theatre with Russian Forces for the troops and he was very successful in this.
Q. Witness, I would like to get one other thing. I interrupted you when you spoke about the mission of Professor Brandt and I gave the impression that I wanted to keep something away from the court. Please describe this matter briefly since this mission was completely harmless.
A. As far as the mission of Professor Brandt is concerned, the following is to be said here. Under the Russians here was an institute in Rostov for studying the plague. This institute had sub-departments down as far as the Kaukasus. It was in the interest of the health of the German Army to restors and resume the activity of this plague institute. Thus, I was given the mission to get all material about this plague institute, above all to find out Where these sub-departments were and to find out where the workers of these departments were and to win them over for this Work.
Q. This suffices. Witness, did you do anything for Paul Hennicke of the SS and Police Leaders who was to be appointed?
A. The leader Hennicke was not yet in service. Therefore he was there as a private citizen. I helped him in all matters in order to make him find his way into the work and into the life of this area, what work had already been done about this area, and I gave him the material for his own information.
Furthermore, he used me as a guide for all enterprises which were connected with installing his own office and he used me as an impartial witness during conferences which he had with Army generals when they visited him or when he visited them.
Q. This suffices.
A. May I add that, since we were pretty far apart in the city, he had his own telephone line.
Q. Witness, what general military situation did you find in Rostov?
A. I already said that the activity of the Einsatzkommando was restricted to the area of the Army Croup Don. This Army Croup consisted of a German Army under Field Marshal Paulus with the objective of Stalingrad and of Romanian Armies at both flanks. Through the flight of these Roumanian Armies a very serious situation arose, which has been designated by the name Stalingrad. The desparate struggle for this city threw its shadow on the Army Croup Don and also on the activity of the kommando. Rostov became more and more the next objective of the Red Army. Even during the struggle for Stalingrad small units of Red Army people advanced toward Rostov, As early as in December they tried in the north and in the south, by tank attacks to regain the city by sudden attacks. The military situation, especially after the fall of Stalingrad was very bad and very serious. At the time we counted on an all-out defense of Rostov.
Q. Witness, was there any reason that in your district proceedings had to be carried on to a large extent against members of the civilian population who had violated orders?
A. Whether this was the case, I do not know, but it is true that this desperate situation encouraged the illegal activity of all Bolschevists and therefore this made many proceedings necessary. Through the disorderly and undiscuplined flight of the Rumanian unrest and confusion arose everywhere in the Army area. Attacks, plundering, looting and rape were common, namely through the fleeing marauding Rumanians.
Therefore it was very easy for the underground agitators to win the population over for crimes against the German Army on whose account the Rumanian Army had come. Much more acute was the danger that the civilian population was taking possession of the arms which had been thrown away by the Rumanians. One could find guns which had been abandoned in hedges. The Rumanians even sold their arms for food and tobacco and liquor, not only to the German soldiers, but as has been proven to the Russian forces. Finally, this whole area around Rostov did not actually belong any more to the Ukraine, but here Asia became noticeable with its brutality and ruthlessness unimaginable to the Western mind.
German troops, wounded ones and prisoners found terrible examples of this, as they became eveident through the two-fold occupation of Rostov. Investigations of the Russian auxiliary police have shown innumerable cases, since the civilian population after the Russians recaptured Rostov in 1941 not only killed German prisoners of war but mistreated German wounded people who were being cared for in Russian or Rumanian homes and killed these together with those families in a most brutal manner.
One did not even leave the German soldier at rest after he was in his grave. One excavated German graves and tore apart the bodies and chopped them to pieces and threw them away. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, do you know this of your own personal knowledge?
A. I just wanted to say I read this expressly in the interrogation report which was submitted to me.
Q. When?
A. At the time when I was there. The case was investigated by the Kommando.
Q. Very well.
A. As an eye witness reported to me -- in another case the Russians dragged a German officer who had been captured to death. They hit him on the chin and chained him to a car which drove so long until the officer was dead. But the most terrible which I experienced was the following, that is, I heard it from eye-witnesses who saw it. It is well-known that the Russians buried prisoners up to the head so that they could not flee. When the Germans advanced toward Rostov a German soldier was found who had been buried up to his head. He was shouting with all his powers. They called back to him that help would come. He could not answer back, he could merely shout so that he was foaming at the mouth. They excavated him while he was shouting and raging. They found the following, the soldier had been covered by blankets. When the blankets were removed one found that a steel helmet had been tied to his body and under the helmet there was a living rat which had eaten its way into the body of the soldier.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. This case was also being investigated?
A. No. This was a report from eye witnesses---German eyewitnesses.
Q. I now come to your affidavit which is in Volume 1, that is, it is the fifth to the last, Document No. 4314, Exhibit 29, page 111 in the English. You speak in this affidavit of the fact that in your commando two or three thousand executions were carfied out. Can you recall that you said this, and is this number correct?
A. The figure which I give in my affidavit is meaningless since I cannot give such a figure to the best of my knowledge. It came to be given in the following manner. During an interrogation under oath at the camp Eselheide near Paderborn in the British Zone by an American interrogation officer I was requested by the interrogator to give the figure of those who were executed by the BK 6 during my time. Since I did not know it, and since I was not skillful at making an estimate, I told the interrogator that I could not even give him an estimate. The interrogator would not let go. Finally, he said it would not have to be so exact, a thousand more or less did not matter, thus he gave me the cue, and I said "Two to three thousand". That is how this number came to be put in the affidavit shich wasmade out at Eselheide. During my interrogation here at Nurnberg I had the same figure put in, even though I knew that this figure had just been given ny me arbitrarily. But since I saw that certain other statements were not exactly correct anyway, and since the interrogator, when I pointed this out to him, answered me that I would get an opportunity to make additional statements, I did not want to argue with him any more, but I wanted to correct this matter at the occasion which was promised to me. If I am now asked how high the figure of those executed by EK 6 during my time was, I can say truthfully that I do not know this figure.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q? Excuse me, Dr. Bergold. You say that the interrogator indicated that even if you erred to the extent of 1,000 that it didn't matter, and then upon that declaration you estimated the deaths to have been from 2,000 to 3,000 is that correct?
A. No, not quite.
Q. No, no. I am merely repeating -- I am trying to repeat what you said -- is that what you told us?
A. I did not say that.
Q. Well, then please repeat just what the interrogator told you.
A. The interrogator wanted to know the figure. I told him, "I do not know the figure". The officer said I should estimate the figure. I said, "I cannot." Then he said, "Well, it doesn't have to be so exact; I don't care whether it is a thousand more or less. Whether you can give it exactly by the thousand I don't care", and when I heard t the word "thousand", I said, "Well, just two or three thousand."
Q. Well, he said it didn't matter if it was incorrect by a thousand more or less?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, let us suppose that these figures are wrong to the extent of 1,000 as the interrogator suggested, it wouldn't matter if it was wrong to 1,000, would you then say that your estimate would be, allowing for all those errors, one to two thousand instead of 2,000 to 3,000?
A. I cannot say, Your Honor at this time, as I already explained it. I do not know the figure, and I only finally was persuaded to give it because he did not seem to bother about the figure, because I told him that the cases were all investigated, so that I personally did not exactly care about the number, and now I let him persuade me when he said"two or three thousand" without thinking much about it.
Q. Well, he said, "Give us an estimate", you said, "I cannot give you an estimate", he said, "Well, even if you make a mistake as high as 1,000, it still will not matter", "now give us your estimate" and then you said "two to three thousand"?
A. Yes, I just said that impulsively.
Q. So you allowed yourself a margin of error of 1,000 in accordance with his suggestion?
A. No. It isn't to be taken this literally. If he says, "Don't worry about a thousand more or less," this means, "Well, just give me any figure, it doesn't matter, a thousand more or less."
Q. Well, that is what you have now told us two or three times, that he said that if you made a mistake by a thousand it wouldn't matter, and that you gave your estimate?
A. Yes.
Q. Your estimate as you gave it that day would be within a thousand of being correct?
A. I cannot give any information about this because I do not know the figure, and any estimate would be wrong.
Q. Well, then you do not know how many were executed?
A. No.
Q. And you allowed this interrogator to persuade you to give some kind of an estimate?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. How, these executions occurred in 1941?
A. 1942 - 1943.
Q. Very well. So that four to five years have passed since then. Can you give us an estimate today how many were executed during the nine months that you were in Russia?
A. I was only four months in Rostov. Afterwards, I was in Taganrog and no more executions took place there.
Q. Well, all right. Then within those four months how many executions occurred?
A. I do not know since I never saw them -- I never saw the f figure.
As I have explained, I did not bother about these matters because Brigadier General Thomas gave me Sturmbannfuehrer Nehring just for this purpose.
Q. Well, can you give us some figure of the number that you know of your own personal knowledge were executed?
A. I know of none of my own knowledge, your Honor.
Q. Can you give us a figure of the number that you know were executed -- any figure that you know of your own personal knowledge were executed?
A. Then it could only be that figure which was executed during those two executions.
Q. And how many were they?
A. I don't know this number exactly, either, the first time during the gas executions it was one vanful. The gasvan then was fully occupied. What the capacity of the van is I don't know, but I think 40 or 50; and during the shooting -- at the most 15 persons.....
Q. Well, just a moment. Let's take care of the gasvan, please. Now, you say there were 40 to 50 people in the gasvan?
A. Yes.
Q. And you stand on that figure?
A. Yes.
Q. Why is it in your affidavit you said "50 to 60"?
A. It could have been 50 to 60. I don't know the capacity, I just thought it was higher then.
Q. Ten, more or less didn't make much difference to you?
A. I had no insight into these matters, I heard here......
Q. Well, you had eyesight, didn't you?
A. Yes, but I didn't count them,
Q. Well, you looked at them?
A. Yes, I saw them, but didn't count them. I only know approximately what the capacity of this gas-van is.
Q. Well then you saw the bodies -- it wasn't the capacity, you say the bodies?
A. Yes. I saw the bodies but I didn't count them.
Q. When you made your report to Thomas on your reaction to the execution, did you tell him how many were executed in the van?
A. No, I did not.
Q. It didn't occur to you in a report of an execution to tell your superior how many were executed?
A. No. That was not the point at issue. He merely wanted to know what my impression was of what I had seen, and how I felt about it.
Q. Well, all right. You are making a report to your superior and you are telling him that you witnessed an execution by gas in a van. Wouldn't it be the most logical thing in the world to say, "in this gas van there were so many people?"
A. No. It was not an official report about the execution. I did give him a report about the execution, but I merely gave him a report about the impressions which I had in Rostov, that includes an execution.
Q. Now, you studied the corpses rather carefully, didn't you?
A. Yes. Not individually. The gas van was opened and I looked into it in order to look at the condition inside, and when I did that I saw what I have already explained.
Q. Well, you looked at their faces, didn't you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you looked at most of the faces, didn't you?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Well, you looked at the majority, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. Well, then, how could you give a report on the appearance of the faces if you didn't look at the larger number of the faces?
A. Your Honor, what I saw is that these faces had a completely peaceful expression.
Q. How many faces did you see of these 40 to 60 corpses?
A. Considering such an experience, the number does not make an impression, only what one sees.
Q. Well, what did you see, how many faces did you see?
A. I said I do not know the number. This was not important for me. It was merely an impression which I had to report.
Q. Well, but you cannot get an impression of faces unless you look at the faces. You described the appearance of the faces in your statement here. Now, you had to see some faces. How many faces did you see?
A. If I look into the van I see the people lying in the van. They were still sitting, in face, part of them, and this impression which I gleaned from this was the one that, in their position and in their expression they looked peaceful.
Q. Well, all right. You saw their expression,-- facial expressions. Now, how many did you see?
A. I do not know. I only saw a general impression.
Q. Yes. You cannot tell us how many faces you actually saw?
A. No.
Q. So that if you only saw some of the faces, it is very possible that the faces which you did not see carried the distorted expressions and carried expressions indicative of great pain? That is possible, isn't it?
A. Whether this is possible, I cannot judge.
Q. Well, now let's be logival about it. There are 60 people in the van, and let us say that you see about 10 faces, and on the expressions which you witness you find complacency, peace, and tranquility. Now, it is within the realm of possibility that on the faces of the other 50 you will find registered terror, pain, and great suffering. That is possible, isn't it?
A. It would be strange that I just happened to see those faces which looked peaceful. It was an average which I saw, and this had the effect which I described.
Q. Very well, all right. And you cannot give us any better estimate than what you gave of the number in the van?
A. That is right.
Q. Very well. Now, hour many were shot in the execution which you witnessed.
A. Fifteen men, approximately.
Q. Yes. All right, then 15 added to 50, taking the average, would give you 65 executions. Now, you personally know there were 65 people killed by your commando?
A. Yes, I saw that.
Q. Yes. Now, you made up reports right along, didn't you, to send to the Einsatzgruppe headquarters?
A. Yes, reports were made out.
Q. Yes, and didn't these reports carry the number of executions?
A. I assume so, but I do not know since these reports were made out by Nehring.
Q. Well, did you see the reports before they were sent in?
A. No, I did not. Department 4 was in charge of Nehring and he had to do it himself.
Q. And you did not see these reports?
A. No.
Q. If Thomas were to ask you at that time, at the determination of your encumbancy as to how many executions had taken place, you would not be able to give him any figure?
A. No, I could not have given him a figure.
Q. So that after four months of activity at Rostov you left not knowing how many people were killed by your kommando?
A. That is correct.
Q. Yes, but you do know, however, that every person killed had had a trial and his case had been investigated?
A. That was the general directive in the kommando.
Q. Do you know whether every person executed had had the opportunity to explain his case?
A. As far as I know, every individual was interrogated and was heard.
Q. Do you know as a matter of fact, as the head of the kommando that there was an investigation in each case which resulted in an execution?
A. In every case not, because I did not see every case.
Q. Well, then, there were people executed by your kommando that you knew nothing about?
A. The most of them, because this was not my mission. Brigadier General Thomas took this job away from no expressly.
Q. Yes, all right. How many cases do you know of which were investigated?
A. I do not know any. I can't say anything about it.
Q. Well, yes, you can say something about. You are here on trial, and you will say something about it. You said that the interrogator was demanding that you give an estimate of the number killed you said, "I am not interested in that because each case was investigated."
A. No, I said, "I do not know, I do not know the figure, and I cannot know it because I did not work on these matters."
Q. Did you not tell tills Tribunal during the last hald hour that when the interrogator questioned you as to the number who were executed, you replied that you did not know the figure, you were not interested because there was an investigation of each case of death anyway, did you say that?
A. Yes, yes, that is how it was ordered for the kommando.
Q. Then every case was investigated, wasn't it?
A. As far as I know, yes, for I did not investigate it myself.
Q. As the man in charge of the kommando, did you order that there would be an investigation before a person was killed?
A. No. I already said that all these directives already existed when I arrived at the komnando; they had all been ordered by my predecessor, by the lawyer, Regierungsrat Moor.
Q. Did you carry out that order that there should be an investigation of each case before an execution?
A. I said that this was to be continued in the old manner in which Moor had started.
Q. Then you reaffirmed the order?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you know that investigations took place?
A. Yes, I said that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now, between now and 1:45, we will give you time to recollect how many cases were investigated. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
( A recess was taken until 1335 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 21 November 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tirbunal is again in session.
DR. KOBELT for von Radetsky: Your Honor, I ask for your permission that the defendant von Radetsky be excused coming Monday 24 November from the morning and afternoon sessions.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant von Radetsky will be excused from attendance in Court next Monday all day. BY THE PRESIDENT: to you. Now let it be known beforehand that you are not required to answer that question or any question which is put to you if you do not desire to do so. No one is compelled to answer. No defendant is required to take the stand if he prefers not to but once a defendant goes onto the stand voluntarily and makes certain statements it inevitably follows that those statements will be scrutinized and if a statement is made which challenges common observation or logic or rules of cause and effect then inquiry will be made. So these questions which are put to you are only for the purpose of ascertaining the truth but we repeat that you are not compelled to answer them if you do not desire to. If you do not answer a question when the discussion has reached a point where the answer would considerably illuminate such matter then whatever inferences might naturally follow will, of course, have to follow. Now, you were asked just before the recess how many investigations were made of cases prior to execution. The reason that question was put is that in your affidavit you stated that during your time of office as commander of Einsatzkommando 6, between September 1942 and June 1943, there had been some 2000 to 3000 executions performed in the area of your Einsatzkommando. Asked about this this morning you said that you told the interrogator this number because apparently he did not insist upon precision and, therefore, you gave him this number. And you added, also, that it didn't matter how many were executed because there was an investigation in each case.