BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q? Excuse me, Dr. Bergold. You say that the interrogator indicated that even if you erred to the extent of 1,000 that it didn't matter, and then upon that declaration you estimated the deaths to have been from 2,000 to 3,000 is that correct?
A. No, not quite.
Q. No, no. I am merely repeating -- I am trying to repeat what you said -- is that what you told us?
A. I did not say that.
Q. Well, then please repeat just what the interrogator told you.
A. The interrogator wanted to know the figure. I told him, "I do not know the figure". The officer said I should estimate the figure. I said, "I cannot." Then he said, "Well, it doesn't have to be so exact; I don't care whether it is a thousand more or less. Whether you can give it exactly by the thousand I don't care", and when I heard t the word "thousand", I said, "Well, just two or three thousand."
Q. Well, he said it didn't matter if it was incorrect by a thousand more or less?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, let us suppose that these figures are wrong to the extent of 1,000 as the interrogator suggested, it wouldn't matter if it was wrong to 1,000, would you then say that your estimate would be, allowing for all those errors, one to two thousand instead of 2,000 to 3,000?
A. I cannot say, Your Honor at this time, as I already explained it. I do not know the figure, and I only finally was persuaded to give it because he did not seem to bother about the figure, because I told him that the cases were all investigated, so that I personally did not exactly care about the number, and now I let him persuade me when he said"two or three thousand" without thinking much about it.
Q. Well, he said, "Give us an estimate", you said, "I cannot give you an estimate", he said, "Well, even if you make a mistake as high as 1,000, it still will not matter", "now give us your estimate" and then you said "two to three thousand"?
A. Yes, I just said that impulsively.
Q. So you allowed yourself a margin of error of 1,000 in accordance with his suggestion?
A. No. It isn't to be taken this literally. If he says, "Don't worry about a thousand more or less," this means, "Well, just give me any figure, it doesn't matter, a thousand more or less."
Q. Well, that is what you have now told us two or three times, that he said that if you made a mistake by a thousand it wouldn't matter, and that you gave your estimate?
A. Yes.
Q. Your estimate as you gave it that day would be within a thousand of being correct?
A. I cannot give any information about this because I do not know the figure, and any estimate would be wrong.
Q. Well, then you do not know how many were executed?
A. No.
Q. And you allowed this interrogator to persuade you to give some kind of an estimate?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. How, these executions occurred in 1941?
A. 1942 - 1943.
Q. Very well. So that four to five years have passed since then. Can you give us an estimate today how many were executed during the nine months that you were in Russia?
A. I was only four months in Rostov. Afterwards, I was in Taganrog and no more executions took place there.
Q. Well, all right. Then within those four months how many executions occurred?
A. I do not know since I never saw them -- I never saw the f figure.
As I have explained, I did not bother about these matters because Brigadier General Thomas gave me Sturmbannfuehrer Nehring just for this purpose.
Q. Well, can you give us some figure of the number that you know of your own personal knowledge were executed?
A. I know of none of my own knowledge, your Honor.
Q. Can you give us a figure of the number that you know were executed -- any figure that you know of your own personal knowledge were executed?
A. Then it could only be that figure which was executed during those two executions.
Q. And how many were they?
A. I don't know this number exactly, either, the first time during the gas executions it was one vanful. The gasvan then was fully occupied. What the capacity of the van is I don't know, but I think 40 or 50; and during the shooting -- at the most 15 persons.....
Q. Well, just a moment. Let's take care of the gasvan, please. Now, you say there were 40 to 50 people in the gasvan?
A. Yes.
Q. And you stand on that figure?
A. Yes.
Q. Why is it in your affidavit you said "50 to 60"?
A. It could have been 50 to 60. I don't know the capacity, I just thought it was higher then.
Q. Ten, more or less didn't make much difference to you?
A. I had no insight into these matters, I heard here......
Q. Well, you had eyesight, didn't you?
A. Yes, but I didn't count them,
Q. Well, you looked at them?
A. Yes, I saw them, but didn't count them. I only know approximately what the capacity of this gas-van is.
Q. Well then you saw the bodies -- it wasn't the capacity, you say the bodies?
A. Yes. I saw the bodies but I didn't count them.
Q. When you made your report to Thomas on your reaction to the execution, did you tell him how many were executed in the van?
A. No, I did not.
Q. It didn't occur to you in a report of an execution to tell your superior how many were executed?
A. No. That was not the point at issue. He merely wanted to know what my impression was of what I had seen, and how I felt about it.
Q. Well, all right. You are making a report to your superior and you are telling him that you witnessed an execution by gas in a van. Wouldn't it be the most logical thing in the world to say, "in this gas van there were so many people?"
A. No. It was not an official report about the execution. I did give him a report about the execution, but I merely gave him a report about the impressions which I had in Rostov, that includes an execution.
Q. Now, you studied the corpses rather carefully, didn't you?
A. Yes. Not individually. The gas van was opened and I looked into it in order to look at the condition inside, and when I did that I saw what I have already explained.
Q. Well, you looked at their faces, didn't you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you looked at most of the faces, didn't you?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Well, you looked at the majority, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. Well, then, how could you give a report on the appearance of the faces if you didn't look at the larger number of the faces?
A. Your Honor, what I saw is that these faces had a completely peaceful expression.
Q. How many faces did you see of these 40 to 60 corpses?
A. Considering such an experience, the number does not make an impression, only what one sees.
Q. Well, what did you see, how many faces did you see?
A. I said I do not know the number. This was not important for me. It was merely an impression which I had to report.
Q. Well, but you cannot get an impression of faces unless you look at the faces. You described the appearance of the faces in your statement here. Now, you had to see some faces. How many faces did you see?
A. If I look into the van I see the people lying in the van. They were still sitting, in face, part of them, and this impression which I gleaned from this was the one that, in their position and in their expression they looked peaceful.
Q. Well, all right. You saw their expression,-- facial expressions. Now, how many did you see?
A. I do not know. I only saw a general impression.
Q. Yes. You cannot tell us how many faces you actually saw?
A. No.
Q. So that if you only saw some of the faces, it is very possible that the faces which you did not see carried the distorted expressions and carried expressions indicative of great pain? That is possible, isn't it?
A. Whether this is possible, I cannot judge.
Q. Well, now let's be logival about it. There are 60 people in the van, and let us say that you see about 10 faces, and on the expressions which you witness you find complacency, peace, and tranquility. Now, it is within the realm of possibility that on the faces of the other 50 you will find registered terror, pain, and great suffering. That is possible, isn't it?
A. It would be strange that I just happened to see those faces which looked peaceful. It was an average which I saw, and this had the effect which I described.
Q. Very well, all right. And you cannot give us any better estimate than what you gave of the number in the van?
A. That is right.
Q. Very well. Now, hour many were shot in the execution which you witnessed.
A. Fifteen men, approximately.
Q. Yes. All right, then 15 added to 50, taking the average, would give you 65 executions. Now, you personally know there were 65 people killed by your commando?
A. Yes, I saw that.
Q. Yes. Now, you made up reports right along, didn't you, to send to the Einsatzgruppe headquarters?
A. Yes, reports were made out.
Q. Yes, and didn't these reports carry the number of executions?
A. I assume so, but I do not know since these reports were made out by Nehring.
Q. Well, did you see the reports before they were sent in?
A. No, I did not. Department 4 was in charge of Nehring and he had to do it himself.
Q. And you did not see these reports?
A. No.
Q. If Thomas were to ask you at that time, at the determination of your encumbancy as to how many executions had taken place, you would not be able to give him any figure?
A. No, I could not have given him a figure.
Q. So that after four months of activity at Rostov you left not knowing how many people were killed by your kommando?
A. That is correct.
Q. Yes, but you do know, however, that every person killed had had a trial and his case had been investigated?
A. That was the general directive in the kommando.
Q. Do you know whether every person executed had had the opportunity to explain his case?
A. As far as I know, every individual was interrogated and was heard.
Q. Do you know as a matter of fact, as the head of the kommando that there was an investigation in each case which resulted in an execution?
A. In every case not, because I did not see every case.
Q. Well, then, there were people executed by your kommando that you knew nothing about?
A. The most of them, because this was not my mission. Brigadier General Thomas took this job away from no expressly.
Q. Yes, all right. How many cases do you know of which were investigated?
A. I do not know any. I can't say anything about it.
Q. Well, yes, you can say something about. You are here on trial, and you will say something about it. You said that the interrogator was demanding that you give an estimate of the number killed you said, "I am not interested in that because each case was investigated."
A. No, I said, "I do not know, I do not know the figure, and I cannot know it because I did not work on these matters."
Q. Did you not tell tills Tribunal during the last hald hour that when the interrogator questioned you as to the number who were executed, you replied that you did not know the figure, you were not interested because there was an investigation of each case of death anyway, did you say that?
A. Yes, yes, that is how it was ordered for the kommando.
Q. Then every case was investigated, wasn't it?
A. As far as I know, yes, for I did not investigate it myself.
Q. As the man in charge of the kommando, did you order that there would be an investigation before a person was killed?
A. No. I already said that all these directives already existed when I arrived at the komnando; they had all been ordered by my predecessor, by the lawyer, Regierungsrat Moor.
Q. Did you carry out that order that there should be an investigation of each case before an execution?
A. I said that this was to be continued in the old manner in which Moor had started.
Q. Then you reaffirmed the order?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you know that investigations took place?
A. Yes, I said that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now, between now and 1:45, we will give you time to recollect how many cases were investigated. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
( A recess was taken until 1335 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 21 November 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tirbunal is again in session.
DR. KOBELT for von Radetsky: Your Honor, I ask for your permission that the defendant von Radetsky be excused coming Monday 24 November from the morning and afternoon sessions.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant von Radetsky will be excused from attendance in Court next Monday all day. BY THE PRESIDENT: to you. Now let it be known beforehand that you are not required to answer that question or any question which is put to you if you do not desire to do so. No one is compelled to answer. No defendant is required to take the stand if he prefers not to but once a defendant goes onto the stand voluntarily and makes certain statements it inevitably follows that those statements will be scrutinized and if a statement is made which challenges common observation or logic or rules of cause and effect then inquiry will be made. So these questions which are put to you are only for the purpose of ascertaining the truth but we repeat that you are not compelled to answer them if you do not desire to. If you do not answer a question when the discussion has reached a point where the answer would considerably illuminate such matter then whatever inferences might naturally follow will, of course, have to follow. Now, you were asked just before the recess how many investigations were made of cases prior to execution. The reason that question was put is that in your affidavit you stated that during your time of office as commander of Einsatzkommando 6, between September 1942 and June 1943, there had been some 2000 to 3000 executions performed in the area of your Einsatzkommando. Asked about this this morning you said that you told the interrogator this number because apparently he did not insist upon precision and, therefore, you gave him this number. And you added, also, that it didn't matter how many were executed because there was an investigation in each case.
So now you are asked, since you yourself said there was an investigation in each case, how many cases were there? not only in this noon recess, and even now I can only say one thing I do not know the figure. I do not intend to refuse to make an answer but I want to testify everything that helps to point out the truth but if I am to state a figure here it is not the truth in any case because I simply do not know the figure. you were the commander, you were the leader, the commanding officer, a certain number of men in the field to insure security to the German troops, that although you were involved in an action which was bound to result in death, and although as commanding officer you were bound to know that reports were made on some of these deaths at any rate. In spite of all that you do not know how many executions there were. Now you are willing to let the record remain that way? mate number? THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD: made. The way I understood it you explained that in every case an investigation took place and you explained that it was ordered by Herr Mohr, your predecessor, who was a trained lawyer, and that you kept up this order and continued with it. I now ask you how do you know that this order was carried out.
a proper investigation had been taking place. carry out your orders and disobeyed and deceived you? personal impression I had of them was that if they tried to deceive me any one working in the Einsatzkommando did not notice it or any other irregularities among them.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, please develop that point. It isn't clear just what that answer was. He said that - at least we got it that if the men tried to deceive him - is that what he said?
DR. BERGOLD: Whether he convinced himself that nobody deceived him in such a manner.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not clear. Did the men deceive him or not?
DR. BERGOLD: No. It is my opinion, your Honor, that if when a leader of a Kommando has been given an order to a certain effect every now and then he had to convince himself whether the order is being carried out. I asked him if he did this and he said he made spot checks. I understand he did not check up on every case and I, therefore, asked him whether with respect to other activities he found that cause existed which proved that these people deceived him in some manner and allowed irregularities to occur and he told us he did not find any such things. That is the only manner in which a subordinate can check up on his people, that he was always watching them, and see whether they were carrying out orders. A superior can only make spot checks when he has such a large field to cover to find out if one is deceiving him.
THE PRESIDENT: The word is coming through that a subordinate would check. I don't know whether it is the interpreter or the lawyer who is saying that. Naturally what is meant is that a superior officer makes the check.
DR. BERGOLD: The officer has to check upon that. In this case, the defendant.
BY THE PRESIDENT: you?
Q And you were satisfied that they were very obedient soldiers? received?
Q Now did they themselves receive the Fuehrer-order?
Q Did you talk with the men?
AAbout this no. I could not, your Honor, because I did not know anything about it. unless you talked with them?
Q Well, did you talk with your men, that's the question? Fuehrer-order?
Q Did you talk with your men, that's the question?
Q Yes, and how long were you the leader of this Einsatzkommando? your men the question of executing Jews never came up once? Communist Functionaries?
A No. I only know one thing about this that somehow, even before my time, Thomas gave an order that Communist Functionaries were to be sent to Kiev for further investigation. I happen to remember that.
Functionaries?
A No. During my time that did not have to be, only in connection with the procedure.
shoot Communist Functionaries? Gypsies?
A Gypsies were never mentioned. I never saw Gypsies. made to shooting Asiatic inferiors? made which challenges the usual routine an inquiry naturally follows. Now, can you explain why it is that all the other defendants in this case knew of this order, or at least all those who have testified, have spoken, have made some reference to it. What mysterious process shielded you from this order? From even the knowledge of it? Can you offer an explanation?
Q Well, give it new. Just what mysterious process it was that took you apart, the commanding officer of an Einsatzkommando, and although every other Kommando leader and sub-Kommando leader, knew about the order to shoot Jews, that by some miracle you were saved from even the knowledge of this shocking order which you heard of for the first time when Ohlendorf took the stand in this very Courtroom. Can you give an observation, can you give an explanation as to what it was that protected you, one person out of all the others that were involved? anything certain about this but only possibilities that might explain this, the fact that in this territory there were hardly any Jews. Therefore, it was not necessary to give such an order. There just were no Jews and, therefore, one did not have to get this order. Apart from that from the very beginning I told Gruppenfuehrer Thomas that I wanted to leave, that I have been a clergyman.
I told him that they could not expect me to carry out executions. All these are matters that are in line and which might have caused it. that you didn't conduct executions of Jews. We ore merely wondering why it is you didn't know about it. Now, were your sub-Kommando leaders all preachers, ministers, Lutheran ministers? with the men in that respect because I was not interested in this at all.
Q Now please answer the question. You were a Lutheran pastor, you were a minister of the Gospel, and you have explained to us that that may have been one reason why Thomas didn't ask you to execute Jews. Is that correct? That is what you told us. Gospel?
Q So, therefore, there would be no reason on Thomas' part to abstain from telling them about the execution of Jews would there on that basis?
A I said that I do not know the way Dr. Thomas thoughts. I only found that no Jews existed in that territory and, therefore, I drew the conclusion that order had no legal importance for that territory. you do tell us that some people were shot - you saw them being shot. Now, what nationality were they,who were they? investigated. That is possible.
Q Well, then there were Jews in that territory. You told us a little while ago there were no Jews.
Q About how many Jews were there?
A That I don't know. beginning, that when you make a statement which is a challenge to common sense you must give an explanation. You say first there were no Jews. Then you indicate there must have been some Jews. Then we question you about that and you say some and now we question you about how many. If you say there were some you would have an idea about the number. Now, tell us how many Jews were in that territory?
A I cannot give any information about this. I do not know
Q You said there were some Jews. Now, what do you mean about some?
Q Well, not this morning. What do you mean by some?
Q Very well. What kind of people were shot? the Army territory Don.
Q You saw 65 people executed. Now, what kind of people were these 65?
A What people, you ask me?
Q Were any of them German? Were any of these 65 Germans?
A I don't think so.
Q All right then what were they?
Q Russian citizens. Now was there an investigation made in each one of these cases of these 65?
A I did not see the files of these 65 cases. I only know that men of the Kommando had received orders ever since the time of my predecessor to investigate the cases. investigated? These 65 deaths?
Q No. So, therefore, you permitted 65 people to go to their deaths without knowing yourself whether they were guilty or not?
Q Did you make any spot checks in these 65? to go to their deaths without even a spot check.
Q Yes. Now we come back to the original point about sub-Kommando leaders. In the ordinary course of events the sub-Kommando leaders would know about orders by the Fuehrer in connection with activities in that area, wouldn't they?
Q And you spoke with your sub-Kommando leaders from time to time? once did the question of the Fuehrer-order with regard to execution of Jews come up?
Q Very well. Take the witness, Dr. Bergold. BY DR. BERGOLD: your Kommando in general that you had been a clergyman for many years? your general attitude and opinions? me than with my predecessor.
Q Did people have to notice this?
generally known you were a clergyman? did not consider you a normal human being or did they consider you as good as anybody else?
A In general the clergymen, did not have a very good reputation. They were always afraid of the church which might stop people from putting in all the strength for tasks that might be demanded of them. BY THE PRESIDENT: in 1941 and 1942? with ones whole soul one remains for the rest of ones life.
Q But in 1935 you gave up your parish, didn't you?
Q All right, in 1938 you formally left the church?
Q You were in no way connected with the church after 1938 were you?
Q You left the church in 1938, didn't you? the church in 1938?
A If the term "clergyman" is understood as the word for a profession, as a main job, I no longer held that profession, but after all a clergyman is not tied down to practicing his profession in a certain manner. I trained for this profession and it will he part of me as long as I live.
Q But you severed all connection with the church. It is by being a member of a church and by preaching to the members of the church that you are a clergyman. You repudiated the church in 1938. How can you still claim to have been a clergyman in 1942? to the churches.
Q We are not speaking about religious life. In order to be a clergyman you must have a church, mustn't you? Ecclesia Invisibilis, a church which cannot be seen.
Q You were a clergyman of an invisible church? ready explained, to create a parish of my own, a community of my own.
Q Where do the members of this invisible church gather?
Q Where was this invisible church in Rostov in Russia? You were parading as a pastor there, asking certain privileges because you were a clergyman. Did you have an invisible church there?
A Your Honor, the matter is like this. If two people talk about religious problems and their beliefs, yes. Then these two form an invisible church.