Q Where was the advance commando Moscow when you loft Smolensk? Commando Moscow was in Spass-Demenskt cast of Smolensk, As far as I can remember, the advance commando Moscow under Koerting at the end of September 1941 left Smolensk, therefore, it left Smolensk before me,
Q Where was the Sonderkommando Moscow? middle of October 1941, marched from Smolensk via Roslawl to Malojareslawez and remained there.
Q How long did you stay with the Advance Commando Group Staff? of October 1941 the end of December '41. At that time I wont on leave.
Q when did you return from leave? Smolensk to the Group Staff.
Q What was the situation when you returned? Naumann, told me that the Advance Commando Group Staff in the meantime had been dissolved and that I was to remain with the Group Staff.
PRESIDENT: Just a minute, please, so that we don't got into a confusion in the record, Nov, the Advance Commando Group Staff was dissolved, then he became a member of the Group Staff. You have the same phrase there. I presume you mean Group Staff of the Einsatzgruppe?
THE WITNESS: Group Staff of Einsatzgruppe B.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, which would be in the nature of Headquartersthe Headquarters Staff?
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY DR, MAYER:
Q Why had the Advance Commando Group Staff been dissolved?
Moscow would be delayed for an indefinite period. you were waiting for Moscow to to captured? for further advances of the Army, I prepared myself for my work in Moscow. I particularly studied the local conditions.
Q Did the Advance Commando Group Staff carry out any executions?
A While I was in command of the Advance Commando; it did not carry out any executions. other units of the Einsatzgruppe there? of the Einsatskommando 9 which was competent in that area, and which dealt with all security police tasks and all SD tasks. Group Staff? Germany in December 1943, December 1945 in the Group Staff? of the language and my experience in Russia. I dealt with reports on the immediate orders from the chief of Einsatzgruppe B. Naumann. Einsatzgruppe B after the Advance Commando Group Staff was dissolved in December 1941? after Christmas 1941 consisted of making reports. The Chief of the Einsatzgruppe, Naumann, gave me immediate instructions to do this. These reports soon became a kind of evaluation medium for captured Russian material, which constantly and continually was turned in by the commandos to the Einsatzgruppe staff, or was handed over by the army.
I looked through this material. I translated it and I used it for reports. Any unclear points which might have been contained in it or anything that might have been missing in those documents was supplemerited by making special inquiries. This evaluation office consisted apart from the SD Department of the Group Staffs. I did not deal with the daily reports which the Commandos gave to the Group Staff in the SD sector but I made comprehensive reports about the large organizations and problems of the Russian Bolchevist life, In details the reports calt with detailed explanations about the various political, cultural, and governmental forms of organization of the USSR, the history of their development, their manner of working their sphere of influence, and the effects on public life. Since these explanations were always made in great detail, making them took a long time because we had to tudy documents and literature, question Russians of various professions and of various classes, and interrogate reports of the various organizations. Moreover, Naumann gave me the assignment that a detailed plan of the assignment should be worked out by me for the entire Einsatzgruppe in Moscow, but since the existing material was only incomplete and completions and corrections had to be made to a large extent. it took a lot of time to work out this plan. A completely new register of streets had to be worked out alphabetically because we did not have any such register. For the work in Moscow, a large city of four million inhabitants, this was absolutely necessary; in order to speed up the printing of this list and in order to correct any possible mistakes, I had to make a special trip to Berlin, This is only an example to show how many difficulties we had to overcome. Preparing this assignment plan took up three months. It took almost as long for me to give detailed explanations about the NKVD and other political organizations in the USSR. During my two years' activity, from December 1941 until December 1943, five or six such large reports were made out by me. Apart from that, I continuously dealt with small translations. When the attitude of the Russian people towards the German occupation authorities became noticeably Worse, I received the order to organize a special Russian information service which had the task to find the causes why the reactions and the attitude of the people had become so much worse in regard to the German occupation forces and to report about this in current reports.
As part of this reporting, for example, in summer 1943, I collected extensive material about the excesses of the administrative office, when recruiting volunteer workers to be sent to Germany. The then chief of Einsatzgruppe B, Standartenfuehrer Boehme, handed this on to the chief of the Einsatzgruppe center of the Army Group Center. When I wanted to submit some more material on this later on, the chief of the Einsatzgruppe told me he did not think that I should continue to work against our own German offices and agencies.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, do you wish to offer something?
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I didn't want to interrupt the defendant's reading of his carefully prepared answers, but in order to save time, we are prepared to concede that the defendant wrote reports without going into all the details.
THE PRESIDENT: I do think, Dr. Mayer, that those reports are perhaps too much in detail, his report of the reports. Might you during the recess see the defendant and determine if you can't abbreviate a little bit of this long story on his reports and get right down to the essential parts of the indictment.
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor. The witness has finished replying to this question, but since this activity extended over two years for which he has to account, in my opinion, we cannot avoid going into detail about this, but the question has been replied to now.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but I was only thinking about what he might still have further to say, and it would not be necessary to go into any greater detail on the matter of reports which he was making.
DR. MAYER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. GICK: Dr. Gick representing Dr. von Stein for the defendant Sandberger. excused from this afternoon's session because Dr. von Stein needs him in order to conclude a document book which he is preparing. I would like your Honor to rule that he be removed and brought to room 57 immediately, under guard to room 57 so he may there consult with his attorney.
DR. MAYER: Mayer for the defendant Klingelhoefer. examination of the defendant Klingelhoefer.
THE PRESIDENT: Please do. BY DR. MAYER: until December, 1943, you described your intelligence activity in Smolensk. I now ask you what tasks you had to deal with after Smolensk was evacuated. the staff of Einsatzgroppe B was transferred to Minsk, In Minsk I was ordered to collect the well-working indigenous Russian police forces which were in good working order and to reorganize them for Ninsk; They were to be assigned to reconnaissance against partisan activity and to fight the partisans and other rioters who were becoming very dangerous in the vicinity of Minsk. After these units had been reorganized, I was relieved, and on 20 December 1943 I returned to Germany, 1941, until December, 1943, receive any mission from Neumann, outside your own sphere of activities?
A Yes. At the end of May approximately or the beginning of June, 1942, I was assigned by Neumann to go to Krassniy which is about forty kilometers to the west of Smolensk and to carry out a reconnaissance activity against partisans. order? as this was a very urgent mission for the Army Group and he did not have another officer who could deal with it at the moment. It was only a very short period so that my current assignments would not be delayed too much.
Q What exactly was the mission in Krassniy? activity and movement of a partisan group in the forest territories near Krassniy in order to give the Wehrmacht the necessary information for the fight against this partisan group. I had to deal with this mission in close collaboration with the local Kommandantura of the Wehrmacht in Krassniy.
Q How long did this take you? out against the partisans, and who carried it out? of the Wehrmacht together with a police unit.
Q Were executions carried out on this occasion?
had been warned and evaded the blow. of his successors? late in the evening I received the order from the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe B, Naumann to go to the estate Wissokojo which was in the vicinity of Smolensk, and which was run by the Einsatzgruppe B, as apparently mutiny had occurred with the Russians of the enterprise "Zeppelin", As I knew the Russian language I was supposed to carry out the investigation of this matter. I did so according to orders within the next three days.
Q What was the result of your investigations? following result. The Russians housed on this particular estate who had taken part in the operation "Zeppelin", after they had been trained in Germany for their espionage and sabotage activity, had been sent to Smolensk where they were equipped, end after a short stay they were to be brought by airplanes of the German Luftwaffe to the Hinterland, the rear territory of the Russian Army. Owing to bad weather conditions, this was delayed so that these Russians -- they were about fifteen or sixteen men -- had to be kept in this estate for two to three weeks, In the meantime some of these Russians had smarted to persuade their comrades not to carry out the mission to which they had consented and to influence them to commit treason. Especially, two or three of the Russians were found guilty of trying to give away some of their comrades who had been anti-Bolshevists all the time to the NKWD after the landing. As a result of the investigations I established the fact that apart from these two or three Russians which I mentioned, who, pretending to be loyal without the slightest doubt had smuggled themselves into this operation "Zeppelin" from the very beginning with the intention of sabotaging the work, but that the others had remained faithful in their attitude and in their work and were absolutely blameless as far as this matter was concerned.
I gave a report to the Chief of Einsntzgruppe B, Neumann, to this effect. particular case? the subsequent action in this matter after I left; as my own activity was thus concluded, and I went to Germany on leave immediately. in Krassniy and Wissokoje which were outside the actual program of your assignment, have any other assignment of this kind?
A Yes. Already before those events which I just mentioned took place -- before Krassniy and Wissokoje -I received at the beginning of September 1941, the order from Nebe to obtain winter clothing for the unit, that is, furs and fur lining,, He told me on that occasion that it was not possible to supply the necessary clothing for the winter from Berlin, and his attempt to this effect with the first quartermaster of the Army Group had had no result. Nebe furthermore told me that he had received a directive from the Army to requisition the necessary winter clothing in the territory. Several agencies and Army units had done the same thing.
Q Why did Nebe choose you for this task?
AAlthough as it was a task of the administration. I had nothing to do with assignments of this kind Nebe regarded merely the fact that I know the Russian language as sufficient reason for entrusting this to me, Furthermore he thought this would be a good opportunity for mo to collect more information for my SD reports. out of his assignment? Jews from the large Justice had fled to these two places, as the Einsatz Group had found out and it could on assumed that the Jews owing to their good living conditions which they had in the USSR possessed winter clothing. in fact, so much of it that a seizure for the purposes of the occupation forces would not matter to them very much, Simultaneously Nebe asked me to institute a ghetto in both of these places for the Jews, which up till then, bad not been done, I, however, evaded this part of the mission, pointing out than I had had nothing to do with these matters up till then and had had no experience whatsever. I did not know how a ghetto was to be instituted and what directives I had to pass on to the Jews, I, therefore, suggested to Nebo to entrust SS-Hauptsturmfuehr Noack with the carrying out of this task, who as a departmental expert for the Jewish question was competent to deal with such matters. Thereupon Noack received the order from Nebe to carry out the antiJewish operation in Mstislawl and Tatarsk.
Q How did you carry out your own assignment? been allotted to us for these tasks went to Mstislawl. After our arrival in Mstislawl -- that was in the afternoon of the same day -- I immediately took up contact with the mayor while Noack carried out his assignment with the local Russian police chief, I ordered the mayor to inform the Jews living in Mstislawl to deliver the furs and fur clothing which they had in their possession to him for selection purposes.
I told the mayor that I was ordered to requisition winter and fur clothing against a receipt, The redeeming of this requisition slip would have to be done at the Wehrmacht offices and the amount had to be used for the supply of the Jewish population of Mstislawl. Raids of houses ware neither threatened nor carried out. In the meantime I had myself informed about general conditions in the Jewish section of Mstislawl by the mayor, and I asked him for details concerning the inhabitants of the place who would be in a position to give us information concerning the conditions before the occupation by the German troops. I discussed matters with these people in detail. In the meanwhile the fur clothing was delivered into the mayor's place.
Q Do you know anything about Noack's mission and how he dealt with it at the same time? Noack had not finished his mission, I went in search for him. My investigations revealed that he had left Mstislawl in a southerly direction with his Kommando. As it was wellknown that the territory around Mstislawl was invested with partisans, I decided to follow Noack in my car and in case there might be any incidents, I thought I could support him. I took the remainder of the Kommando consisting of six men and found him about two kilometers from Mstislawl in a scrub land where he was just carrying out an execution.
Q Had he concluded the execution when you joined him?
A No. When I arrived ten Jews had just been lined up in front of a grave, a ditch. Behind them there was the detachment. This consisted of about twenty men who were firing rifles.
Q How was the execution carried out? which I have just described. I had arrived immediately before the order to fire. I saw the fire and I also saw the Jews falling with their fronts into the grave. After they had fired, the medical officer who had been present, an SS noncommissioned officer who in civilian life had been a medical student, went into the ditch and convinced himself that the people were dead. As far as I remember, apparently everybody was dead, as I heard no further shooting.
Q Did you return with Noack to Mstislawl then?
A No. The reason why I went to see Noack at the place of execution was the worry that through some unforeseen incident he might have come into difficulty with the partisans, On account of my attitude against such matters, the execution as just described, moved me so much that I immediately went back to Mstislawl, after I had made sure that no danger threatened Noack and his men in the way I have just tried to explain.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you have related this episode with some detail. Are you aware of the fact that it differs from the affidavit which you singed about five months ago, four months ago? Are you aware of that fact, that it differs from that affidavit?
THE WITNESS: I am aware of that, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Which is correct, the narrative which you related to Wartenberg or the story which you have now related today?
DR. MAYER: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. May I interrupt here and say that when the documents are discussed, we can come back to this question because the defendant has written another affidavit which has not yet been submitted but which is contained in my document book and will be submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, yon intend to take up this discrepancy between accounts?
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor, when the documents are being discussed.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. MAYER;
Q Witness did you go to Tatarsk as had been ordered by Nebe?
Q What happened there? Tatarsk, as Nebe had ordered, where things happened in the same way as in Matislawl, Here again I worked on collaboration with the mayor while Noack carried out his mission in collaboration with the Russian Police. In Tatarsk I didn't visit the execution place. and I never saw any executions being carried out there.
THE PRESIDENT: You say when you arrived at this next town, the same thing happened again. De we understand that you got there just as the execution was to take place?
THE WITNESS: No, that is now when I meant, Your Honor, On the contrary what I mean to say is that at Tatarsk I did not visit the execution place, I merely dealt with the task which I had to deal with, which was the obtaining of winter clothing.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, that also differs from your affidavit, and I presume you will explain that later, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. BY DR, MAYER:
Q Please proceed, witness, with your answer? and I didn't witness any executions carried out there. Later on Noack informed me that he had shot about twenty Jews in Tatarsk, and thirty in Mstislawl. Apparently they were old men, and I do not know whether women or children were shot in those executions in Tatarsk.
carried out executions in Tatarsk and Mstislawl? insofar asfrom now on only those Jews would be shot, who were not able to work;for this reason he had acted accordingly in Tatarsk and Matislawl. I heard about this modification later on during my activity in the grou-staff. the advance commando in Moscow? entrusted me with -- the requisitioning of this clothing.
Q Was this requisition within the program of the Fuehrer Order? were carried out in Tatarsk and Mstislawl? to Noack concerning his mission, and, therefore. I did not order Noack to do so. he had Jews shot in Tatarsk and Mstislawl? to him.
Q Were you engaged in this activity, as Noack's supervisor? Noack wasonly responsible to Nebe insofar as these orders were concorned. upon whose orders?
A Yes, on Nobe's order.
Q For what reason? messenger of the Mayor of Tatarsk arrived at the office of the Einsatzgruppen in Smolensk with a message that in Tatarsk the Jews had begun to leave the Ghettos to which they had been confined, and had taken up contact with the Partisans who infested the forests in that visinity. The Mayor had been threatened by the Jews, that they would eliminate him and his police with the aid of these Partisans. The layer asked for immediate help and support, as it was not possible for him to master the situation thus created, and that his security was threatened by these conditions. order you again to deal with the situation? had mentioned before as pertaining to the field of tasks of Hauptsturmfuehrer Noack, who at the time instituted the Ghetto in Tatarsk, and who was no longer in Smolensk but had shortly left when called back to Berlin as a possible candidate for another job in the executive service, and Nobe gave me this order; as I was the only officer in the group staff who had some knowledge of the locality and area of Tatarsk and who had knowledge of the language which in this case was particularly necessary. This condition was emphasized by Nebe as it was an operation in the Partisan infested territory, and it was also a matter of carrying out investigations and interrogations, in which knowledge of the language would be of decisive value. For this reason the whole unit of Waffen-SS and Police of about thirty men was put at my disposal.
Q What detailed order did Nebe give you in this case? of Tatarsk, which had been delivered by the messenger, and find out whether it was accurate.
In case it was, to carry out ruthlessly the punishment the Jews had been threatened with in case they left the Ghetto.
Q What do you mean by the term: to proceed ruthlessly in accordance with the punishment provided for such deeds?
A By this I meant the following: the prohibition for all the Jews in these Ghettos installed by Noack, according to which they were not allowed to leave the Ghetto under death penalty was given largely for the reason that the Security Police wanted to prevent the Jews from taking up contact with the Partisans. This prohibition was a supplement of the Wehrmacht directive for all indigenous civilians which imposed death penalty for such deeds. Therefore, it was my task to investigate which Jews had left the Ghetto in order to contact the Partisans. As far as I could establish some Jews were guilty of these offenses and they had to be shot.
Q What then did you establish when you arrived in Tatarsk? males just going into the woods. I, therefore, had the forest surrounded and had it combed thoroughly. Furthermore, I also established that the Ghetto of Tatarsk was empty, and that part of the Jews had returned to their former homes. Then, after all the Jews who were still in Tatarsk, and also in the woods, had been arrested, they were brought to the market place, I established that only a small part of the original population of the Ghetto had been found, while by far the larger part apparently had joined the Partisans. Thereupon I had the events and facts described to me by the Mayor and by the Russian Police Chief. message? leave the Ghetto the morning before. When the Mayor wanted to take action in collaboration with the Russian police, pointing but the punishments to the Jews concerned, he was threatened, abused, and the Jews said they were going to fetch the Partisans, and they were going to hang him and the police.
The Mayor was not in a position to prevent the exodus of the Jews from the Ghetto, and he found out that a very large number of men immediately had left Tatarsk and fled into the surrounding woods. Therefore, he made up his mind, as he saw himself and his man threatened by the Jews to send off the message with an appeal for help to Smolensk, which, arrived there in the evening of the same day, and was received. Mayor? former Jewish Council was no longer in existence in its full number, and my extensive questions to the elders of the Jews brought forth an admission that the missing members of the council had joined the Partisans in the forest, as well as all the missing male Jews, and that the Jews had taken up contact with the Partisans in the forests where they were promised help and support by them if they would leave the Ghetto. As that locality of Tatarsk was almost off the map, and as it had no connection with a railroad or road, and was in a wooded territory, the Jews had relied upon these promises on the part of the Partisans. When investigations were made to find the liaison men between the Partisans, and the individual Jews, it was established that three Jewish women were the inspirers of this mutiny. interrogation of the Jaws? apprehended male Jews had acted contrary to the instructions not to leave the Ghetto which they had been given at the time and apart from that, that they had taken up contact with the Partisans, and that these happenings and events were in accordance with the facts, which, according to the order of Nobe and the Wehrmacht directive, constituted a case requiring the death penalty.
I, therefore, issued the directive to shoot these thirty male Jews whose guilt had just been proved. This investigation, however, also revealed that women and children were not guilty of having taken part in these activities.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Partisans. I, therefore, decided not to have the woman and children shot but to have them put back into the Ghetto. This was done . In contrast to this, the already mentioned three women had been shown to be particularly active in this mutiny, and as Partisan agents constituted even for the future a tremendous danger to the Security: therefore, I had to treat them as I was treating the men, and as I could not take the responsibility of sparing their lives in accordance with the facts which I had established, I had them executed.
Q Who carried out that execution? police under the leadership of a NCO, I was only present at the beginning of the execution, because I was called away, and I had to go back to Tatarsk where during this resettlement of the Jewish women and children riots had broken out and disputes arose between the Russian and the Jews regarding some property, and they had asked for my presence to make a decision. The execution of the three women, upon my especial directive, was carried out separated from the execution of the men. These women were, as confirmed to me by the NCO who was in charge of the execution, were shot while standing there about ten paces from the detachment, and were immediately buried. The clothing and any valuables were not taken from any of those executees. This directive I gave expressly to the man in charge of the execution. THE PRESIDENT: which you have described as having taken place at Mstislawl?
A I don't understand Your Honor, how was this question? town, which name I can not pronounce, but it looks like Mistislawl. You told how the executees faced the grave and were shot from the rear, then fell face forward into the grave. Is that the way the women were executed also?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A Your Honor, that I don't know, because I was not present at the execution in Tatarsk. The execution which I described, and which I myself witnessed; had happened a month earlier, that was another different operation. the women should be executed?
Q Very well. Then what instructions did you give about the graves, about the guns, about the places, about the burial. Just tell us what directions you gave in regard to the execution of these three women?
A I didn't give a detailed directive how it was to be carried out, because that was the task of the NCO in charge of the execution. The only directive I had given to the NCO was to shoot these thirty Jews. about ten paces away. You went into that. Didn't you, just a few moments ago?
Q All right, well, did you see the execution?
A No, I didn't witness it.
Q Why do you give this detail as to how they were shot, then? three woman.
Q Alright. Now, you tell us just what directions you gave for shooting the three women? from the men to be shot, and to carry out the execution in an orderly manner. I asked the NCO to have them blindfolded, and that the women should be shot blindfolded, and, then they should be taken to a separate grave. rear of them, as they were shot?