A No. When I arrived ten Jews had just been lined up in front of a grave, a ditch. Behind them there was the detachment. This consisted of about twenty men who were firing rifles.
Q How was the execution carried out? which I have just described. I had arrived immediately before the order to fire. I saw the fire and I also saw the Jews falling with their fronts into the grave. After they had fired, the medical officer who had been present, an SS noncommissioned officer who in civilian life had been a medical student, went into the ditch and convinced himself that the people were dead. As far as I remember, apparently everybody was dead, as I heard no further shooting.
Q Did you return with Noack to Mstislawl then?
A No. The reason why I went to see Noack at the place of execution was the worry that through some unforeseen incident he might have come into difficulty with the partisans, On account of my attitude against such matters, the execution as just described, moved me so much that I immediately went back to Mstislawl, after I had made sure that no danger threatened Noack and his men in the way I have just tried to explain.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you have related this episode with some detail. Are you aware of the fact that it differs from the affidavit which you singed about five months ago, four months ago? Are you aware of that fact, that it differs from that affidavit?
THE WITNESS: I am aware of that, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Which is correct, the narrative which you related to Wartenberg or the story which you have now related today?
DR. MAYER: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. May I interrupt here and say that when the documents are discussed, we can come back to this question because the defendant has written another affidavit which has not yet been submitted but which is contained in my document book and will be submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, yon intend to take up this discrepancy between accounts?
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor, when the documents are being discussed.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. MAYER;
Q Witness did you go to Tatarsk as had been ordered by Nebe?
Q What happened there? Tatarsk, as Nebe had ordered, where things happened in the same way as in Matislawl, Here again I worked on collaboration with the mayor while Noack carried out his mission in collaboration with the Russian Police. In Tatarsk I didn't visit the execution place. and I never saw any executions being carried out there.
THE PRESIDENT: You say when you arrived at this next town, the same thing happened again. De we understand that you got there just as the execution was to take place?
THE WITNESS: No, that is now when I meant, Your Honor, On the contrary what I mean to say is that at Tatarsk I did not visit the execution place, I merely dealt with the task which I had to deal with, which was the obtaining of winter clothing.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, that also differs from your affidavit, and I presume you will explain that later, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. BY DR, MAYER:
Q Please proceed, witness, with your answer? and I didn't witness any executions carried out there. Later on Noack informed me that he had shot about twenty Jews in Tatarsk, and thirty in Mstislawl. Apparently they were old men, and I do not know whether women or children were shot in those executions in Tatarsk.
carried out executions in Tatarsk and Mstislawl? insofar asfrom now on only those Jews would be shot, who were not able to work;for this reason he had acted accordingly in Tatarsk and Matislawl. I heard about this modification later on during my activity in the grou-staff. the advance commando in Moscow? entrusted me with -- the requisitioning of this clothing.
Q Was this requisition within the program of the Fuehrer Order? were carried out in Tatarsk and Mstislawl? to Noack concerning his mission, and, therefore. I did not order Noack to do so. he had Jews shot in Tatarsk and Mstislawl? to him.
Q Were you engaged in this activity, as Noack's supervisor? Noack wasonly responsible to Nebe insofar as these orders were concorned. upon whose orders?
A Yes, on Nobe's order.
Q For what reason? messenger of the Mayor of Tatarsk arrived at the office of the Einsatzgruppen in Smolensk with a message that in Tatarsk the Jews had begun to leave the Ghettos to which they had been confined, and had taken up contact with the Partisans who infested the forests in that visinity. The Mayor had been threatened by the Jews, that they would eliminate him and his police with the aid of these Partisans. The layer asked for immediate help and support, as it was not possible for him to master the situation thus created, and that his security was threatened by these conditions. order you again to deal with the situation? had mentioned before as pertaining to the field of tasks of Hauptsturmfuehrer Noack, who at the time instituted the Ghetto in Tatarsk, and who was no longer in Smolensk but had shortly left when called back to Berlin as a possible candidate for another job in the executive service, and Nobe gave me this order; as I was the only officer in the group staff who had some knowledge of the locality and area of Tatarsk and who had knowledge of the language which in this case was particularly necessary. This condition was emphasized by Nebe as it was an operation in the Partisan infested territory, and it was also a matter of carrying out investigations and interrogations, in which knowledge of the language would be of decisive value. For this reason the whole unit of Waffen-SS and Police of about thirty men was put at my disposal.
Q What detailed order did Nebe give you in this case? of Tatarsk, which had been delivered by the messenger, and find out whether it was accurate.
In case it was, to carry out ruthlessly the punishment the Jews had been threatened with in case they left the Ghetto.
Q What do you mean by the term: to proceed ruthlessly in accordance with the punishment provided for such deeds?
A By this I meant the following: the prohibition for all the Jews in these Ghettos installed by Noack, according to which they were not allowed to leave the Ghetto under death penalty was given largely for the reason that the Security Police wanted to prevent the Jews from taking up contact with the Partisans. This prohibition was a supplement of the Wehrmacht directive for all indigenous civilians which imposed death penalty for such deeds. Therefore, it was my task to investigate which Jews had left the Ghetto in order to contact the Partisans. As far as I could establish some Jews were guilty of these offenses and they had to be shot.
Q What then did you establish when you arrived in Tatarsk? males just going into the woods. I, therefore, had the forest surrounded and had it combed thoroughly. Furthermore, I also established that the Ghetto of Tatarsk was empty, and that part of the Jews had returned to their former homes. Then, after all the Jews who were still in Tatarsk, and also in the woods, had been arrested, they were brought to the market place, I established that only a small part of the original population of the Ghetto had been found, while by far the larger part apparently had joined the Partisans. Thereupon I had the events and facts described to me by the Mayor and by the Russian Police Chief. message? leave the Ghetto the morning before. When the Mayor wanted to take action in collaboration with the Russian police, pointing but the punishments to the Jews concerned, he was threatened, abused, and the Jews said they were going to fetch the Partisans, and they were going to hang him and the police.
The Mayor was not in a position to prevent the exodus of the Jews from the Ghetto, and he found out that a very large number of men immediately had left Tatarsk and fled into the surrounding woods. Therefore, he made up his mind, as he saw himself and his man threatened by the Jews to send off the message with an appeal for help to Smolensk, which, arrived there in the evening of the same day, and was received. Mayor? former Jewish Council was no longer in existence in its full number, and my extensive questions to the elders of the Jews brought forth an admission that the missing members of the council had joined the Partisans in the forest, as well as all the missing male Jews, and that the Jews had taken up contact with the Partisans in the forests where they were promised help and support by them if they would leave the Ghetto. As that locality of Tatarsk was almost off the map, and as it had no connection with a railroad or road, and was in a wooded territory, the Jews had relied upon these promises on the part of the Partisans. When investigations were made to find the liaison men between the Partisans, and the individual Jews, it was established that three Jewish women were the inspirers of this mutiny. interrogation of the Jaws? apprehended male Jews had acted contrary to the instructions not to leave the Ghetto which they had been given at the time and apart from that, that they had taken up contact with the Partisans, and that these happenings and events were in accordance with the facts, which, according to the order of Nobe and the Wehrmacht directive, constituted a case requiring the death penalty.
I, therefore, issued the directive to shoot these thirty male Jews whose guilt had just been proved. This investigation, however, also revealed that women and children were not guilty of having taken part in these activities.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Partisans. I, therefore, decided not to have the woman and children shot but to have them put back into the Ghetto. This was done . In contrast to this, the already mentioned three women had been shown to be particularly active in this mutiny, and as Partisan agents constituted even for the future a tremendous danger to the Security: therefore, I had to treat them as I was treating the men, and as I could not take the responsibility of sparing their lives in accordance with the facts which I had established, I had them executed.
Q Who carried out that execution? police under the leadership of a NCO, I was only present at the beginning of the execution, because I was called away, and I had to go back to Tatarsk where during this resettlement of the Jewish women and children riots had broken out and disputes arose between the Russian and the Jews regarding some property, and they had asked for my presence to make a decision. The execution of the three women, upon my especial directive, was carried out separated from the execution of the men. These women were, as confirmed to me by the NCO who was in charge of the execution, were shot while standing there about ten paces from the detachment, and were immediately buried. The clothing and any valuables were not taken from any of those executees. This directive I gave expressly to the man in charge of the execution. THE PRESIDENT: which you have described as having taken place at Mstislawl?
A I don't understand Your Honor, how was this question? town, which name I can not pronounce, but it looks like Mistislawl. You told how the executees faced the grave and were shot from the rear, then fell face forward into the grave. Is that the way the women were executed also?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A Your Honor, that I don't know, because I was not present at the execution in Tatarsk. The execution which I described, and which I myself witnessed; had happened a month earlier, that was another different operation. the women should be executed?
Q Very well. Then what instructions did you give about the graves, about the guns, about the places, about the burial. Just tell us what directions you gave in regard to the execution of these three women?
A I didn't give a detailed directive how it was to be carried out, because that was the task of the NCO in charge of the execution. The only directive I had given to the NCO was to shoot these thirty Jews. about ten paces away. You went into that. Didn't you, just a few moments ago?
Q All right, well, did you see the execution?
A No, I didn't witness it.
Q Why do you give this detail as to how they were shot, then? three woman.
Q Alright. Now, you tell us just what directions you gave for shooting the three women? from the men to be shot, and to carry out the execution in an orderly manner. I asked the NCO to have them blindfolded, and that the women should be shot blindfolded, and, then they should be taken to a separate grave. rear of them, as they were shot?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A No, the grave was not behind them. They were shot next to the grave, not so they fell into the grave. I gave a special directive concerning this, and that they be shot with their fronts to the squad, because they were shot blindfolded. I was not there myself. I only gave the directive, and I asked for an orderly and correct execution.
Q And they were shot at ten paces? expressly whether he had followed my directive concerning the shooting of these three women.
Q And how many men were on the firing squad?
Q How soon after the execution did you leave?
A. I was only there when it was prepared. I spoke to the NCO that the Jews should he lined up, five men in each group. When the first five men were led in a message arrived from the Mayor saying that in Latarsk Jewish women were having trouble with the Russian women and that I should come immediately because they were beating up each other. I immediately had to leave as I was the only one who could settle the matter.
Q. Who were beating up each other? Russian women?
A. The Russian women and the Jewish women - they were squabbling over their property.
Q. And you regarded that of more importance - a fight between women, pulling each other's hair. I imagine, than the execution of three women and thirty men? You regarded that of more importance, did you?
A. Your Honor, the situation was such that the Mayor sent a messenger and asked that I should come immediately because a fight had broken out between Russian and Jewish women and it wasn't possible to create order. I had to leave. There was no other man who could speak Russian and could handle the situation. I also knew that the NCO had received the orders to carry out the executions in proper order and he certainly was a man who was serious and correct, and therefore it was guaranteed to me that these executions would be carried out in a correct manner.
Q. How far away was the town from the scene of the execution?
A. One kilometer approximately.
Q. Did you go back after you had settled the fight between the women to the scene of the execution at make certain that all had gone well?
A. No, no, I didn't have the opportunity to do so because I had to be careful that no new fights should break out.
Q. You were the guardian of the peace in this town to see that the women didn't fight with each other?
A. Well, your Honor, after all if women fight one has to do something, hasn't one?
Q. Well, I don't think so. I think I would let them fight. What certainly isn't of more importance than a matter of life and death. Did you conduct an investigation yourself into the cases of these thirty men and the three women?
A. Yes, your Honor. I have stated to this effect that I carried out extensive investigations.
Q. You said that they had been in contact with the Partisans?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, how did you seize them if they had already gotten in contact with Partisans and were cooperating with them?
A. I arrest them. They were the men who had remained in Tatarsk and on these I could establish the fact that they were in contact with Partisans and had caused the mutiny.
Q. Well, they had not joined the Partisans?
A. They had contact with the Partisans and they had declared themselves prepared to spy for the Partisans, a so-called reconnaissance service. They confessed that to me. Therefore, they had remained in Tatarsk in contrast to those Jews who had left.
Q. Where did they contact the Partisans? Right in the Ghetto?
A. Yes. May I give an explanation of the whole event. First of all - -
Q. Did they contact the Partisans in the Ghetto?
A. The Partisans had taken up contact with the Jews via these three women.
Q. Did these thirty men contact the Partisans in the Ghetto?
A. Yes.
Q. The Partisans came right into the Ghetto and talked with the Jews?
A. No. These three women, these three agents, established connections between the Jews and the Partisans and cited the Jews to leave the Ghetto.
Q. The three women left the Ghetto and talked, with the Partisans, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then came back.
A. And then they came back.
Q. And they talked with these other thirty man that were left in the Ghetto?
A. No, they spoke to all of the men in the Ghetto.
Q. Well, you sh** thirty. I am talking about these thirty. These never left the town. Now, when these three women came back did they talk to these thirty?
A. To these thirty and others.
Q. But these thirty did not join the Partisans they were there?
A. They remained, They remained with the intention to Work for the Partisans, these that remained - otherwise they would't have been there.
Q. Wouldn't have been, where
A. If they had had the intention to escape into the woods and work actively as Partisans, rifle in hard, then they wouldn't have been there. They would have been in the woods but they had expressly remained to do work for the Partisans in the Ghetto.
Q. They remained in the Ghetto - they were not armed?
A. Then were not in the Ghetto when I came.
Q. Well, they were in Tatarsk.
A. They were in Tatarsk and they had come back into their former apartments to hide themselves as there.
Q. They were living in their homes? The homos in which they lived before you arrived, is that right?
A. Yes, they had unrightfully returned to their apartments although it was forbidden.
Q. They returned home and you regarded that as being illegal, were they armed?
A. No, they were not armed. That they wouldn't hare dared in the town to show arms.
Q. So that the evidence you had was that these three women had left the Ghetto, gone into the woods and conferred with Partisans and cams back and talked with these thirty?
A. That is the fact but not only those so but also the other men.
Q. Yes, I know, they talked to others but we are talking about the thirty you shot. The evidence you had against them was that these three women had gone into the woods, spoken with the Partisans and returned and spoke in these thirty, We will forget about the others for a report.
A. I did not quite understand this question.
Q. The three women, the Jewesses had left the Ghetto, gone into the woods, contacted the Partisans, and then returned to Tatarsk and had talked with these thirty men?
A. Yes.
Q. And because of that contact that the 30 man had had with these three women you regarded them as having committed a crime which could only be expiated by being shot?
A. No, your Honor, not because they had spoken to the women but I had proved, based on these investigations, that through these three women contact had been taken up with Partisans and they had declared themselves prepared to work with Partisans in Tatarsk and had remained there for this express purpose.
Q. The only evert act which they had committed was to leave the Ghetto, return to their homes, speak with the three women, and for what they did they had to expiate this offense with their lives, is that correct?
A. No.
Q. What did they do overtly which was criminal?
A. They had taker, up contact with Partisans which by a directive of the Wehrmacht was punishable by the death penalty.
Q. But this had been done through the three women, that's right isn't it? The 30 men themselves did not leave Tatarsk?
A. No.
Q. So that they personally physically had had no contact with the Partisans?
A. Not physically but mentally, your Honor.
Q. Mentally, yes and the only contact they had was through these three Women?
A. Yes, through these three women.
Q. All right. So, therefore, the evidence which you had upon which to kill these thirty Jews was that they had mentally communicated with the Partisans and they were in their homes mentally determined to resist you. That's the evidence you had, isn't it?
A With the promise to do agent service for the Partisans. This was an important element, your Honor. They had confessed in the interrogations that they were about to conduce espionage acts. This in itself was sufficient to identify them with the Partisans and there was a Wehrmacht regulation for the death penalty no matter in whatever shape this contact was established. act of an agent, had they?
A This was not necessary according to regulations. your Honor. The fact itself that the people had been proved guilty of having taken up contact with the Partisans was sufficient for the death penalty according to the Wehrmacht regulation. In view of the special situation in which we found ourselves in in the Eastern territories the Partisan danger made this measure necessary. their homes where they had been living for years and you isolated them in a ghetto, you forbade them to have contact with the rest of the world. then they left the Ghetto. three women went away from the Ghetto. and returned and these thirty and the three women and in accordance with information which you obtained you believed conscientiously chat they deserved death? Does that distinctly tell the story? into the Ghetto. That was carried out by others and was in accordance with a special order. It was merely for me to establish who had left the ghetto and who had taken up contact with the Partisans. That was what I had to carry out, and there was nothing else, your Honor. Once for all the order had been given to Jews that leaving the Ghetto was punished by death. There was, in addition, the Wehrmacht directive that contact with Partisans was punishable by death and I had to act according to these directives and orders given by higher authorities.
to impose the death penalty on Jews leaving the Ghetto. work for Partisans.
Q Just what do you mean by contact with the Partisans?
Q Well repeating the same word doesn't help us a bit. That is like asking what is a cook and saying a cook is one who cooks. Tell us what you mean by contact with Partisans. You told us before that it was a mental contact. a man is prepared to work for Partisans. That then in itself is a contact with them. He makes himself guilty of being partisan and is thereby treated as a Partisan in accordance with regulations. If these men furthermore had contributed through their attitude to the fact that the others had the possibility to escape into the woods and to reenforce the partisan gangs for the combat against the Wehrmacht...
Q If a Jew in this town said "I will work with the Partisans" and nothing else happened would that be enough to bring about the death penalty?
A If there was evidence to his saying "I will work with the Partisans", or if he........
Q No, please don't add to it. This Jew says to you. "I intend to work with Partisans' and that's all you have in the way of evidence. Would that be enough so shoot him. Partisans-- and I cannot produce evidence against him....
Q No, it isn't a wish. So says. "I intend to work with the Partisans". Those are the words - would you shoot him? intention to work with the Partisans?
Partisans. They had not ....
Q What did they do? Tell us what they did. Tell us what they did more than express an intention to work with Partisans. Tell us what they did? or an least had evidence of. Partisans had left the Ghetto and carried out espionage acts for Partisans. act in time. work with Partisans? Partisans it was more than just more intention in my opinion it was already beyond that.....
Q Had these thirty actually contacted face to face Partisans? Had they gone into the woods and talked with them?
A No. But they.... partisans....
Q Very well. You found them in their homes. You arrested them and according to what you say they confessed that they wanted to act with the Partisans, is that right?
Q Now witness, isn't the real turth of the matter that you executed these thirty because of the Fuehrer order because they were Jews. isn't that the reason you executed them?
Q Did you know the Fuehrer order?
Q Where you executing the Fauhrer order? order which said you has he execute Jews and they hadn't done anything. with 30 Jews who were to be shot in accordance with the Fuehrer order, but with 30 Jews there were allies of the partisans. investigation and you come to the conclusion that they are absolutely innocent of any contact with Partisans and you have this Fuehrer order before you or in your pocket or in your head, certainly in your mind, that you must kill Jews, would you release these 30 Jews?
Q What would you do? You would shoot them? have reinstalled the Jews in the Ghetto.
Q And then you would have shot them later?
Q What did you do with the Fuehrer order? Jews in accordance with the Fuehrer order then I would have shot them but in this case the Fuehrer order did not necessitate this action. Partisans, whether they had contact with Partisans or merely remained innocently in their homes they were Jews and under the Fuehrer order they were to be shot, that is correct isn't it? that time those people who were able to work were not to be shot and as a matter of fact an Anti-Jewish action on the basis of the Fuehrer order had already been carried out a month earlier by Noack. As I 11 Dec 1947_A_MSD_19_5_Gross (Hildesheimer) have already said, at that time the Jews were settled in the Tatarsk ghetto that had also been based on the Fuehrer order.