BY DR. DURCHHOLZ: towards the Jews?
Q If "Anti-Semitic" means hatred and destruction I have never been "Anti-Semitic." My so-called "Anti-Semitic" attitude only went to that extent as the immoral influence of the Jews which I saw in my native country, in policy, economics, and culture, which had great power here and which limited the development of our own forces and put them aside, and I wanted the influence of the Jews to be reduced to a normal level. The individual Jew meant exactly the same to me as any other follow human being. If a Jew was an honorable man, his race or religious opinions were of no interest to me. towards the Jewish progroms in 1938? November 1938, I was in Munich. I took the next train back to Bremen. Here I found that the Anti-Jewish demonstrations had been performed by the SA in Bremen. Later, I realized that compared to the occurrences in other cities the extent in Bremen was not quite so bad. In spite of this, a few cases of theft had occurred. Immediately I gave instructions to find out who had done it; and in agreement with the Criminal Police, I ordered the stolen items to be returned to their rightful owners. Here I succeeded in nearly all cases, especially in the one concerning the Jewish Jeweler Fischbein to whom I was able to return his entire property which had been stolen from him, although the SA strongly opposed to this measure. Two SA men who had killed an elderly Jewish couple were found by my agency. They were arrested and were reported; as the proceedings which recently took place in Bremen shows, this report was handed on to the Prosecution, where - according to investigation - the proceedings were stopped by order of higher authorities.
My views as to the events of the 8th of November 1938, I expressed during an official discussion where all members of my office took part, clearly and frankly describing them as to be unworthy of the German people. I clearly recollect two incidents where two young Jewesses owing to an affidavit given by their mothers before a lawyer were said to have originated illigimately. I had this certified officially, so giving them an opportunity to enter it in to the files of the register office. After that they were no longer considered full blooded Jews. I adopted this attitude, because I admired the sacrifice which mothers male here. when I now mention the name of Dr. Rosenack? Herr Dr. Rosenack would no doubt be in a position to testify. Professor Rosenack was an attorney in Bremen, he was the son of a Jewish Rabby. For many years, from 1934 until he emigrated to the States, I think in 1937 or 1938 I discussed all affairs of the Jewish population in Bremen with him. He negotiated with me as an equal partner. I esteemed him greatly as a human being, because of his bravery I was promoted lieutenant during World War I. He had been wounded and had the Iron Cross distinction. Before he emigrated to the States, he visited me and thanked me for my loyal attitude towards his follow Jews.
He asked me to look after the interests of the Jews after he had left. As long as I was in Bremen I kept my word to him. That was up to the year 1939. The address of Dr. Rosenack has not been determined definitely but I believe he is living in New York.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: As soon as I get the translations I shall submit a great number of affidavits by the witnesses mentioned here about these and other occurrences, and I shall introduce them to the Tribunal.
Q (By Dr. Durchholz) Witness, will you please tell the Tribunal when, and in what manner, you had official and private contact with the SS. formalities I was, according to my rank as captain, drafted into the SS as a Hauptsturmfuehrer. The document stating this fact is contained in my personal files, which without exception I handed out to the CIC in Salzburg in the year 1945. This original document as others concerning my promotions, unfortunately, I cannot submit here because when my personal files were returned to me in Nuernberg last year they had already been taken out, but I presume that these papers are in the files of some American agency.
Q Why were you promoted in the SS at that time? with my promotion as lieutenant of the police, or rather, as official, as it was done automatically with everyone throughout the Police Force. Bremen, Where did you go to after that? transferred from Bremen and was put in charge of the State police agency in Reichenberg. I still want to mention that before my transfer to Reichenberg I was transferred to Graz for about 8 weeks in spring of 1938, for about 6 weeks to Aussig, when our troops occupied the Sudeten area, and in to fall of 1938 for about 8 weeks to Olmuetz.
Q What activity did you have in Graz? What was your work there? of Austria, in March 1938. It was my job to take care of the security there and to set up a state police office in Graz according to Reich principles..
DR. DURCHHOLZ: May I point out to the High Tribunal, that in connection with the defendants activity in Graz where he particularly looked after political persecutees, I have a number of affidavits which I shall submit where, for example, the Archbishop there was released through him, as wall as a number of college professors and a man who was a Minister then an is a Minister now Were released through the defendant.
Q ( By Dr. Durchholz) Witness, after Graz you returned to Bremen? remained there until the fall of 1938. At that time I received the order to take over charge of an Einsatzkommando in the Sudeten area.
Q You just used this expression "Einsatzkommando." You were drafted to an Einsatzkommando when the Sudeten area was occupied, were you not? Could this Einsatzkommando perhaps be compared with the Einsatzkommandos of 1941 in Russia, which will be discussed later on? Or did it mean something different? same as the Einsatzkommando and the Einsatzgroups set up in Russia.
At that time there were already an Einsatzgruppe which conducted a Commando's marching into an area which it, and the Einsatzkommandos who were intended for certain areas. The only difference between them was that they were not strictly subordinated to the military commanders and, as it should be, they were merely meant for police tasks. In spite of this, even at that time the Einsatzkommandos were subordinate to military commanders during army operations to such an extent as the military commander also had the executive power. area, were you ordered back to Bremen - and then you again took part in the occupation of Czechoslovakia and joined the Einsatzkommando there?
A Yes. The development was the same again, when I arrived in Olmuetz nobody had been arrested yet. The Einsatzkommando merely were given a search book according to which certain persons who had proved to endanger the security had been arrested - persons who had exposed themselves. I still remember that most of them were formerly ethnic Germans who, when Hitler had taken over in 1933, had emigrated and developed an anti-German activity in Czechoslovakia. There were also a few Czech citizens among them -- for example, remember that in this list for arrests the police director for Olmuetz, Dr. Bender, had been intended to be arrested as well. Before I carried out this order, however, I got myself some information on how he did his duty, and in particular whether he worked against Germany, and about his attitude about racial Germans within his region. Since I did not hear anything to that effect, not even from racial Germans, and nobody was against this man, I did not carry out this order for arrest. I discussed the matter personally with Dr. Bender very frankly, and when he gave me his word of honor not to escape, I fulfilled his request to let him go to Prague in order to settle his private affairs there.
This actually happened, and Dr. Bender, as long as I was in Olmuetz, was completely a free man. proceed against Jews in particular?
A No. There was no such order, "Neither for my activity in Austria, nor in the Sudeten region, nor in Czechoslovakia - that is the later Protectorate - were there ordered any measures against the Jewish population. assignment? was given in the year 1941; I did not take part in any other assignment.
Q But these were actual peacetime assignments. After 1939 when assignments to Poland, France, Holland, Norway, and so forth, took place, did you take part in this, too? other countries during the war. As I said already, merely for the year 1941 I was in the Russian campaign. to the State police office in Reichenberg, and from here you were sent to Hamburg? started for you, did it not? Will you please state something briefly to that affect? sent to Hamburg as Commissar Inspector for the corps area district 10.
This is a new time, a new sphere in my work in the Security Police because after that time I left the executive. in the Security Police means? Ohlendorf already has given ample explanation on that point. The official tasks of an inspector were merely of an inspectional character. He had to supervise organisational and personnel matters, to visit local offices and to see if everything was conducted in the proper manner, and to straighten out differences between the Police and the Party, if necessary, to settle them, and finally, the entire Security police was to be represented by him. My main task I saw in looking after my men, giving great importance to their training, in order to avoid by all means that the standard became lower by the influence of the war.
Q Did the inspector have factual powers? Did he have any authority to give orders? orders. He had no executive power.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: About the witness activity in Hamburg I shall also submit affidavits by persons who worked together with him and whom he met there somehow else and whom he helped there.
Q (By Dr. Durchholz) Witness -
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, I presume you are gathering those affidavits as you go along, and as quickly as you can. You are not waiting until the very end to get them?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY DR. DURCHHOLZ: activity in Berlin in March of 1941. In what capacity?
Q That is the Group which was competent in the RSHA?
A Yes, in the RSHA. That is the Group which was competent for training and education, and, normally also, for the affairs of young members to join the staff, The latter question, of course, during the war was of hardly any importance, While being in charge of Group I-B at the same time I was put in charge of the Fuehrer School -- school for leaders. I simultaneously performed both tasks at the school house in Berlin/Charlottenburg. The schools were very important because they were competent for the passing of examinations opening careers of officials of intermediate and higher and leading positions. There were two official schools: one sub-leader school in Fuerstenberg, and a school for leaders in Charlottenburg. In Charlottenburg detectives were trained for the criminal police and for the State police, These schools were looked after by Group I-B, who conducted them. They were the ones responsible for the RSHA. The entire plan was worked out here, and also the material was put together and handed on to the schools. In that way it was achieved that the schools followed a definite plan for the individual classes. They had the same means for teaching, and all those participating in the training courses, therefore, always were instructed according to the same principles throughout. Owing to the development of the war the training for the agencies themselves was no longer of so high a standard because a number of the best experts, owing to the distribution, had been taken away from the schools or did not find sufficient time, to take care of this training.
For that reason it was made a duty of the schools, in spite -- or rather I should say, just because of the war, that the export training be more thorough and even more concentrated. In order to achieve this aim I avoided all that was unnecessary. We did not do as much sports, and only kept up so much as was necessary to keep our pupils physically fit. My military training was discontinued entirely. In the same way, My instruction courses, for the State police and, the criminal police who had been conducted separately until this, were to be joined together. The schooling of both departments was therefore conducted together in favor of the members of the state police who got a good training in criminology that way.
Q An intermediate question, please. Were these schools set up by the Nazis after 1933, or had they existed oven before? not founded by the Nazi state but the continuation and development of an institution already in existence.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Thank you, That is enough.
Q (By Dr. Durchholz) Were the teachers in these schools political functionaries and officials of the NSDAP? member of the NSDAP, was not necessary, and not required. The only thing that was required was the expert knowledge, the personal attitude and the professional skill. Most of the teachers were members of the criminal police because they had the best expert training.
Q The last question about these schools for leaders? How long did such a training course take?
war, took 9 months,
Q You were a commander of this school for leaders, then? And after that, you were assigned to go to Russia?
Q Now I come to your assignment in Russia. How, and when, did you receive the order for your assignment in Russia in 1941? in charge of the school of leaders and Group leader of I B. At the time I was SS-Standartenfuehrer and colonel in the police. About May of 1941 the Chief of Office I, Gruppenfuehrer Streckenbach, gave me the order that the school should be prepared to train people for future members for the executive staff. He based this measure on the fact that there were too few leaders. This shortage came about because meanwhile France had been occupied, and so had Poland and Belgium. Soon after that the order came that the members of this training course should be transferred to Praetsch where, at the time, the school for sub-leaders of the Security Police was still in existence. Approximately at the same time, only a few days later, did I receive the order according to which I was to be put in charge of an Einsatzkommando myself. The aim for the Einsatzkommando was not made known at the time. I remember distinctly that it was often assumed that we were going to attack England. gathered in Praetsch of all places? because there a school was available, and also in the surroundings there were suitable rooms -- for example, inns and other localities.
The school building alone was not sufficient. Apart from settling people in Praetsch, people were also accomodated in the surroundings in Dueben and Schmiedeberg.
Q What happened in Praetsch? repeatedly, because at the time I was just moving from Hamburg to Berlin. For that reason I am not able to give a detailed report about the activities in Praetsch.
that? I lived in a room of a school for leaders, while my apartment was still in Karlstrasse, in Hamburg. My wife was there still, and about the middle of May 1941, the house and my apartment at Hamburg were bombed, or, rather a bomb fell near on the house opposite, and, therefore, my house was badly damaged. For that reason it was of great importance to me to get my wife away from there, also because of the repeated raids. and to take her to Berlin with me. When the General of the Police, whose name was Keller, was transferred, I was able to take over his apartment in Berlin - Wilmersdorf. Thus, by this lucky chance I was able to carry out my removal from Hamburg to Berlin, and this happened just at that time when I had been ordered to Pretsch. With approval of the Chief of Personnel I was released from being billeted in Pretsch. A decisive faster there also was the fact that I was still training for my new task, which was more important than staying in Pretsch inactive, even if only temporary. I was ready to be called away at any time, of course, and I could be at the collection point within a few hours. My property from Hamburg arrived in Berlin at the beginning of July and about that time I was fully occupeid in looking for my apartment.
Q And when were you actually in Pretsch? the forces, and I had to take part in this inspection. About two days before that I travelled there for that reason, and used that same opportunity to greet the men assigned to me, and to inspect their services.
Q What kind of service was that?
A There was a military training service. Most of the members of the Security Police needed a refresher course. Curing these days training was being conducted for the Armament Service; also secret maneuvers were carried out in order to get the trainees used to the new methods in the maneuvers, as they were no longer used to these. I also remember that the transfer of forces in the area under secrecy was being studied.
The training was done by members of the Waffen--SS, which was also assigned to help there. The second day was completely taken up by inspecting the territory and fixing the dates. return to Berlin?
A I returned to Berlin after the inspection. I had to hurry up now to complete the setup of my apartment, because one could expect to be moved any moment. was made known. You told me that this Decree was not known to you before your assignment, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct. I only heard about the so-called Streckenbach Decree when Herr Wartenberg on Good Friday of this year interrogated me for the first time. was it not? Can you now explain why you did not hear of this speech of Streckenbach and this Fuehrer Decree? in Pretsch all the time. point? Schmiedelberg, when it was made known on the radios that the German Wehrmacht had crossed the Russian borders. Sofar as I remember that was on a Sunday. That day remained in my memory because on that day for the first time I had my apartment set up completely, and had breakfast with my wife there, when the news was given on the radio. I, therefore, left for Schmiedeberg very soon. That was as far as I remember on 21 June 1941. The march from the collection point took palce on 23 June 1941.
Q How did you know of your commitment?
Shortly before the inspection in Pretsch in the Prinz Albrech Palace in Berlin, this had taken place, the speech was held there under the auspices of the whole Einsatzgruppen Chiefs and the Einsatzgruppen leaders, who were there. However, I am not able to say that they all took part.
Q And what did Heydrich say during this meeting? ly pointed out that the fight which would soon take place would be the hardest and most bitter the German people had ever gone through. In his inspections, in his speech, and in his attitude, he did not leave any doubt about the seriousness of the situation. He pointed out and stated that in the fight to come not only the people were fighting against another people, but for the first time ideology was fighting against another ideology. He also informed us about the huge territory in Russia, and the difficulties of the fighting in this territory. He explained that Bolshevism would not stop from using every means of fighting, as Lenin had already written; emphasizing there in particular the part the partisans were to play, which Lenin and others had written about, and this could not be misunderstood. That every one should be sure to understand that in this fight Jews would definitely take their part, and that in this fight everything was set at stake, and the one side which gave in would be the one to be overcome. For that reason all measures had to be taken against the Jews in particular The experience in Poland had shown this. Ho pointed out that the Security Police in the rear of the Army territory would be exposed to the attacks of the partisans. For that reason he decided to train them in the use of their weapons, and how to be protected by such weapons of the Police and the Waffen-SS. He also explained the subordination system to the Wehrmacht. These were the main points that Heydrich made, sofar as I remember, but I want to emphasize particularly that any words about extermination or final solution were never mentionedhere. Also the socalled Commissar Orders were not mentioned during this discussion, either.
THE PRESIDENT: I assume we are about to take up another phase of the situation, and in view of the fact this might be a good place to recess for the day. The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. Please, remember, at nine o'clock, and will be in session until twelve o'clock, and that will finish the session for tomorrow.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until nine-thirty hours tomorrow.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 18 October 1947, 0930 hours) of America; against Otto Ohlendorf, et al,
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II-A. Military Tribunal II-A is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. DURCHHOLZ (Attorney for the Defendant Schulz): I would like to continue with the direct examination of the witness.
DR. LUMMERT (Attorney for the Defendant Blume): Your Honor, I would like the Defendant Blume to be excused from this morning's session because I would like to prepare his defense with him. Schulz on the witness stand on Monday. I have a few questions to ask him. The reason that I am mentioning this is in case his examination will be finished today.
THE PRESIDENT: If his examination is not finished today, then, of course, you may examine him on Monday, but if his examination should be finished an appreciable period of time prior to the hour of adjournment, we would ask you to do the cross-examination at once, because otherwise, there would be that interval which would not be very satisfactory.
I might ask, Doctor -- How do you pronounce your name? Durchholz?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: -- Dr. Durchholz if he anticipates that he will have finished with the examination by noon.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: I don't think that I will finish completely today,
THE PRESIDENT: I see. In which event, of course, you may examine on Monday.
DR. LUMMERT: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Further, Defendant Blume will be excused from attendance in court today and will he escorted from the courtroom.
(The Defendant Blume was excused.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY DR. DURCHHOLZ (Attorney for Defendant Schulz):
Q.- Witness, yesterday we were interrupted at a point when you were telling us that you heard a speech by Heydrich in Berlin, in which he spoke about the coming campaign in Russia, in which he did not mention execution, extermination orders or the so-called Commissar order. As I saw from the documents, nevertheless, Heydrich mentioned the Russian campaign more than once. What do you have to say about this?
A.- I only know of his one speech. If any other speeches were supposed to have been held at Pretsch, I can only say that I do not know anything about it, because apart from those days I have mentioned, I wasn't there.
Q.- Is it possible that such a speech is not in your memory any more?
A.- I consider that completely out of the question for an event of such importance I could not have forgotten. Furthermore, my statements and the documents submitted here will show that I could have no knowledge about the order which had been handed down by Streckenbach.
Q.- Can you now tell me, please, how things developed in Pretsch?
A.- The exactness of the dates which I am now going to give you, I cannot absolutely guarantee, since it is only my memory which I have at my disposal. I have no documents. Pretsch and Schmiedeberg started; they were fully motorized. The group to which I was assigned consisted of the so-called "Advance Commandos" 4a and 4b, the Kommando 5, which I was to command, and Kommando 6. The leader of the group was Brigadier General of Police Rasch.
First of all, we went as far as Liegnitz. On the next day we continued to Gleizitz, where we remained for three days, as I remember. Here the Kommandos of the Protective Police joined us. From Gleiwitz, we continued on to Cracow, where we spent one night. On the next morning we continued to Dewitsa. Hwer we garrisoned in the troop quarters. On the 1st of July, about, we reached Radymno at the then new Russian frontier. On the following morning we continued to Lemberg. We reached Lemberg as far as I remember about three days after it was taken. As far as I recall, it must have been about the 2nd of July. There was a large group of people in front of this building, mostly weeping and wailing women. As we found out later on, this was the prison in which their relatives who had been killed were. At the headquarters I found out where I was to be accommodated. It was the building in which the Russian NKWD had been previously quartered. Before that it had been an administration building of the Lemberg Electrical Works. had left, a very great number of Lemberg citizens, Ukrainian and Polish inhabitants of other towns and villages had been killed in this prison and in other prisons. Furthermore, there were many corpses of German men and officers, among them many Air Corps officers, and many of them were found mutilated. There was a great bitterness and excitement among the Lemberg population against the Jewish sector of the population.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Concerning these incidents in Lemberg, Your Honor, which took place before the German troops, marched into Lemberg, I would like to refer to one of the Prosecution's documents, which I have already seen and read in its photostatic copy, but which has not yet been submitted as a Prosecution Exhibit. This is Document NO-2651. That is an Operational Report of the 31st of July, 1941.
I would like to reserve the right to submit this document as my own later on. Lemberg are briefly mentioned in Prosecution Exhibit 116 in Document Book III-B. This is Document No. NO-4537, on page 32 of the German text, to which I am now referring.
Q. (By Dr. Durchholz): Witness, please continue.
Mr. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If Your Honors please, the document quoted by Dr. Durchholz was not offered by the prosecution, but, of course, there is no objection on the part of the prosecution that it is offered by Dr. Durchholz and we will furnish him, if he wants it, with a photostatic copy of the document.
Dr. Durchholz has received it.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you intend to introduce that now?
DR. DURCHHOLZ: No, I would like to submit it later with my document book. I have not had it translated, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
A.- On the next day Dr. Rasch informed us to the effect that the killed people in Lemberg amounted to about 5,000. It has been determined without any doubt that the arrests and killings had taken place under the leadership of Jewish functionaries and with the participation of the Jewish inhabitants of Lemberg. That was the reason why there was such an excitement against the Jewish population on the part of the Lemberg citizens.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by "Jewish Functionaries"?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, these were Russian Communist Functionaries of Jewish faith.
THE PRESIDENT: They were office holders of the Soviet nation who happened to be of the Jewish race?
THE WITNESS: Allegedly, yes.
A. (Continued) There was also great excitment among the German troops because of members of the Wehrmacht, who had been killed. The Army commander, in agreement with the Lemberg authorities, had decided to set up a militia immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the date of these happenings?
THE WITNESS: My arrival in Lemberg was about the 2d of July, and I said -
THE PRESIDENT: Year.
THE WITNESS: 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
A. (Continued) And Dr. Rasch told us what had taken place. I think I just said that. On the following day, that is the 3d of July, 1941....
THE PRESIDENT: What were the Russians doing there at that time?
THE WITNESS: At our time they were no longer there.
DR. DURCHHOLD: Your Honor, I think I can clarify this doubt. On the occasion of the Polish Campaign, Lemberg, which was then Polish, had been conquered by the German troops and had been occupied by them. Then Germany and Russian concluded an agreement, according to which Lemberg was to go over to Russia. Therefore, in 1941, Lemberg was occupied for the second time by the Germans. Lemberg had then been Russian.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, but by July 3, you had overrun Lemberg, had you not?
DR. DURCHHOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The German troops had got beyond Lemberg?
DR. DURCHHOLD: In July 1941, the German troops had taken Lemberg from the Russians.