Q If you say you know nothing about letters which you signed I cannot carry the matter any further.
always know what they were about in detail because that required a special knowledge which I did not possess. I only signed this in order to assist the Sanitaetsinspektor, who for some reason did not want to sign it himself and to take the responsibility.
Now then, the last point. You said on Friday that a German General had been executed for looting jewelry. Where did the looting take place?
A I cannot say that. I t seems to me as if that had been in Belgrade. The name of the general is General Wafer. That I remember.
Q It was jewelry looted from Belgrade?
A That I cannot say. I only know what I have said on Friday. suitable one for looting; apparently that is right.
Q Well, perhaps it was a comment. I will ask you the next question.
What was the value of the jewelry which was looted? stolen nor how much it was, what it amounted to; only the fact that they were supposedly jewels which he took and for that he received the death penalty. getting from occupied countries?
A I don't know anything about that. it is an order of Goering signed on the 5th of November, 1940.
"Goering to the Chief ofthe Military Administration in Paris and the Einsatzstab Rosenberg: To dispose of the art objects brought to the Louvre in the following priority:
"First, those art objects --"
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Roberts, he has never seen this document and he says he knows nothing about it.
MR. ROBERTS: If your Lordship please, if you do not think I should put it to him-
Q You say Goering never dismissed with you his art collection?
occupied countries?
it to Goering?
BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
war by Hitler against the Soviet Union? In January 1941?
Barbarossa Plan?
invasion?
A On the 14th of June. That is about eight days before the
Q And how long before?
outside of Germany and I only returned in May. I was in Africa, in
Q So?
A Only partly. Part of the time I was in France and in Italy.
Q And where were you in January 1941?
Q In January 1941?
telephone, or whether I was in Germany for a day or two. That I cannot say.
I didn't mark it down.
Q Please forgive me. What has a telephone conversation to do with an attack on the Soviet Union?
against Germany was also discussed by telephone?
A No, I have said nothing like that. I just say that I do not
Q Yes. And when did you discuss this question with Goering, the Soviet Union?
Q The 22nd of may, 1941?
A '41, yes.
Q And where was this question discussed?
anybody else present at this conversation?
AAt that time only with Goering. We were alone.
Russia?
Q So. And why did Goering not want this war against the Soviet Union?
This was a defensive war?
Q He was also opposed to a defensive war?
Q That is strange. Maybe you will be able to give me precise reasons why Goering did not wish war against the Soviet Union. it, meant the loss of the war, and I believe that just as I did, many other soldiers and men saw it that way. Union?
Q Strange Your explanations are not very conclusive . On the one hand, you assert it was a question of aggressive war of the Soviet Union against Germany, and on the other hand you say that the German officers did not wish war with the Soviet Union.
A May I explain again: on the 13th of January Goering told me that Hitler had the impression Russia wanted to go against Germany. That was not the opinion of Goering, I assume and not mine, but it was the opinion which Hitler had mentioned as his own.
Q Forgive me. Do I understand that neither you nor Goering believed this opinion of Hitler's?
A I can only speak of myself. Also, in my close circle, I paid openly that I didn't beleive that Russia would go against us. to me about it. You Would have to ask him personally.
Q Yes, and I will ask you now. You mean that personally you did not believe in Hitler's opinion? You mean that Goering's opposition to war was to war against the Soviet Union? asked him with great urgency to avoid a war against Russia, to speak to Hitler about it, Goering told me that he had expressed the same arguments to Hitler, but it was not possible to change Hitler's mind; Hitler's decision was firm and there was no power in the world which could change it.
Q I understand. You mean that Goering, speaking against war with the Soviet Union, meant that it was incompatible with war against England, that he wished to prevent a two-front war?
wouldn't have come to war at that time, it would not have come to it later. war for such a long time, and on the other hand to elaborate the Barbarossa Plan and all the instructions which followed? Do you seriously believe in the preventive character of such a war? commit an aggressive war against Germany, and on the other hand, if one takes into consideration the official date of this document, in the earlier part of December 1940 they began to prepare plans of war against the Soviet Union? that, that he said, "By preventive war I have to stave off the attack by Russia," but that has nothing to do with my opinion. I did not definitely believe that Russia would attack us. I could not see the whole picture, but I did not believe definitely that Russia would do it, from their own Russian interests, which I tried to understand. war. There has already been mentioned here the calling up of Soviet prisoners of war for work in the aircraft industry.
Q How do you consider it when prisoners of war are compelled to work against their own country?
What do you think of that?
A It is, of course, a very bad thing, an ugly thing. However, so far as I know, that has been done by all other nations against our prisoners of war.
Q I am talking of Germany now. You say that is an ugly thing. Isn't that a rather weak answer?
A It depends uponwhat all the others do. All laws concerning warfare-
Q (Interposing): I would like you to answer my question. I am speaking of the action of the German Supreme Command. Do you consider that these actions were in violation of the rules of international law? to me and it isn't clear to me today. I only knew that orders were given to use them, and in the fight for our very existence, to lead this fight also with the help of these men and women.
Q Do you consider that this order was a just order?
A I cannot judge that; that depends upon conditions.
DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW): Mr. President I ask to have the question and answer deleted from the record. The witness was asked to give a legal opinion, which is not his job. Since the question is not admissable, the answer should not be admissible either.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko?
GENERAL RUDENKO: I would like to say that I did not know that the witness did not know whether this was a violation of international law or not. I had every reason to believe that the witness was competent to answer this question because, at the beginning of his statement today, this witness had enumerated ten rules of international law which were given to the German soldiers. I thought that, therefore, the witness could really answer the questions concerning the rules of international law. if the Tribunal considers that this question is unnecessary, I will certainly retract it.
THE PRESIDENT: The question might have been framed differently, as to whether it wasn't a breach of the rules which he had gotten in his pay book.
However, as to international law, that is one of the matters which the Tribunal has got to decide, and upon that, of course, we don't wish the evidence of witnesses.
GENERAL RUDENKO : Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We wanted to rise at half-past four. If it is your intention to ask some more questions, perhaps we had better rise now, or, have you finished?
GENERAL RUDENKO: We had better call a recess now, because I still may have a few questions to put to this witness.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 12 March 1946 at 1000 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, have you concluded your interrogation?
GENERAL RUDENKO: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the French Prosecution wish to ask any questions?
Dr. Stahmer, do you wish to examine further?
DR. STAHMER: No, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness can retire.
(Whereupon the witness left the witness box.)
DR. STAHMER: I call as the next witness, Colonel of the Air
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat the oath after me. I swear by (The witness repeated the oath.)
BY DR. STAHMER:
Q What is your name?
Q Mr. Witness, which position did you have on the staff of the Commander in Chief of the Air Force?
A (No answer.)
Chief of the Air Force?
Air Force. I held the rank of Chief Adjutant. I had the job of keeping the daily journal and organizing the adjutant service.
Daily reported by the offices themselves.
I had no command function.
Officers had fled?
after their flight?
Q Weren't you ever informed that fifty of these officers allegedly were shot while trying to escape?
A I was informed about that much later. I was informed that a number of these officers allegedly had been shot. out? part in these measures? of so-called terror fliers who were shot down? bombings increased steeply. These attacks were directed against civilians who were working in their fields, against secondary railroads and railroad stations without any military significance, against pedestrians and bicycles, all within the homeland. This must have been the reason for Hitler deciding to give orders or to issue orders concerning measures against these fliers. That is as much as I know. Hitler was for the sharpest measures, and lynching should not be prevented. order? expressed their opinion by saying that these attacks, which were solely directed against the civilians, should be condemned. However, no special measures should be taken against these fliers -- lynching and non-protection for parachutists. By the orders of Hitler, the Luftwaffe was forced to take into consideration these questions. It was desired to avoid the consequences of Hitler's opinion. A way will be found, and it was seen in the fact that measures were allegedly taken, but which should not be executed.
to confer with the OKW about the definition of terror fliers. In these conversations and correspondence, all these cases were discussed which, according to international law, could be considered as violations and criminal acts. By these definitions, lynching should be avoided. The correspondence, which took quite some time, also shows the tendency of the various officers to delay the solution of this problem. At the end of June, 1944, the definition of terror flier was stipulated. The stalag was directed to report all cases of violations but not to take any measures. By these measures the directive, in the sense of Hitler, was avoided. by Hitler were not carried out by the air force?
A Yes, that can be said. It can be said that the measures directed by Hitler were not carried out. As well, the commanders of the air force can certify they had not received any orders to shoot enemy fliers or to turn them over to the SD. ceived directives to take hostages or to shoot them? with hostages.
Q Now one more question: Can you give us any information about the treatment of the five enemy fliers who, in March 1945, jumped into the Schorfheide and were captured? the Schorfheide. Part of the crew saved themselves by jumping. Some of those were injured. The injured ones were sent to a rest center hospital. The observer, an American captain, who had been a director in Hollywood in his civilian occupation, was interrogated by the Reichsmarshal about his mission and his jump.
DR. STAHMER: I have no more questions to this witness.
THE RESIDENT: Do any other Defendants' Counsel wish to ask the witness any questions? BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW):
Q I have only a few questions to this witness. Which official position did you have when the war started? the professional soldiers? beginning of the war. On the contrary, we took it with great seriousness. As young soldiers, we saw out mission to train the soldiers, to educate them, and to turn them into preparedness for the protection of our country.
Q Which positions did you have, then, during the war? Were you ever in the staff of an air fleet?
Of a short time as group commander. I was also adjutant of the commander-in-
chief of the air force. of the air force, you could get a lot of information about the Luftwaffe? of air fleets have any influence on political decisions or the manner in which the war was conducted? on any political decisions. Their job was the technical execution of the orders received, and orders about the conduct of the air war in increasing number came from Hitler himself. measures in the conduct of the war? of air fleets. They were professional soldiers who held their positions on the basis of orders.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other Defendants Counsel wish to ask my questions? Do the Prosecution wish to cross examine?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I would ask that the witness be Shown document 1156-PS of the United States documents.
(witness handed document) BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
Q Do you recognize that document, witness? I call your attention to the fact that it purports to be a report to Reichsmarshal Goering on the 19 of March 1941 meeting. conferences if they were personal conferences only at the headquarters. I have not seen this document and I do not know anything about the facts at this conference. I take it and which reads:
"The directives worked out by the W.I. for destructive measures to be undertaken by the Luftwaffe in the 'Fall Barbarossa' were agreed to by the Reichsmarshal. One copy was handed to Captain von Brauchitsch to be forwarded to the General Staff of the Luftwaffe." information about the contents of the letter mentioned here.
Q You knew about the "Fall Barbarossa"did you not?
A I was informed about the "Fall Barbarossa" in the beginning of 1941 for the first time. I was not present at the conference. to be undertaken in connection with that by the Lufteaffe, did you not? attacks against the airfields were ordered. St. Petersburg? remember, nothing was said about these targets but only about attacks against airfields, which were the main targets of the Air Force.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask that the witness be shown Exhibit 735-PS, in evidence as GB Exhibit 151.
(witness handed document) BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: of which only three copies were made, is that correct?
A May I read this letter first before I answer the question? and ask you if you recognize who that signer was?
Q Who was Warlimont?
Q And you knew him welland he knew you well, did you not? him for the first time. is that the occasion when you first met Warlimont?
Q That was on the date 6/6 of '44, when this meeting was held? that meeting, by which it appears that Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner opened the meeting with a report that a conference on the question of the flyers had been held shortly before with the Reichsmarshal, the Reich Foreign Minister and the Reichsfuehrer SS. That is the opening of it, is it not? of that conference.
Q Who was the Reichsmarshal at that time? started and in the night from the 5th to the 6th I called the Reichsmarshal, informed him about the beginning of the invasion and on the morning he left from Feldenstein to be in the afternoon in Klessheim.
Q And this meeting is said to have been held in Klessheim on the afternoon of 6/6, isn't it?
meeting as such and the content of the meeting.
Q Yes, I understand, you were not present. That was between the Reichsmarshal, who wasGoering, was it not? Goering was Reichsmarshal at that time, was he not?
Q Ribbentrop was Foreign Minister at that time, was he not?
Q And who was the Reichsfuehrer SS? Minister -- just follow the next sentence -- "The Foreign Minister who wished to include every type of terror attack on German civilian population. take place; is that not the sense of the first paragraph? thing about the contents of this meeting, of this conference, as I have said before. Kaltenbrunner called? here. says you were?
A I say this is spite of the signature but maybe I can read the whole document before I give a definite answer.
Q Read the last sentence. Witness, I may be misinterpreting this. It does not say you were present but it does say that you gave them this information. I ask you to look at the last paragraph and say whether that is not true? refer to a conference which, if I remember correctly, took place on the 6th late in the afternoon in General Warlimont's house and which I have mentioned in my statement before. do not show you to have been present. There was such a conference as Warlimont describes but it was not the same conference at which Kaltenbrunner was present, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct. I only know of this one meeting on the 6th late in the afternoon, between Walimont and myself.
Q And that is the conference to which he refers in the third paragraph? paragraph, which I just read and there is no connection between the two.
Q T he third paragraph had no connection with the first meeting, you say? no knowledge of paragraph one. I mentioned before that I had the mission to confer with the OKW about the definition of acts which were to be considered as violations of international law and crimes. The conference referred to in paragraph three of Warlimont's minutes is a conference between you and him later that afternoon and had nothing to do with the Kaltenbrunner conference which was held earlier in the day. to the bombing of German cities? the beginning of '44 it was very strong.
Q That was becoming very embarrasing to the Reichsmarshal, was it not?
A Of course it was very disagreeable for the Air Force that their defensive forces were too weak to stave off these attacks.
blamed for the air attacks, was he not? assured the German people back in 1939 that they could be protected against air attacks on the German cities. You understood that fact, did you not? in 1939, which led to this statement, had an entirely different background than in 1944; because in 1944 the entire world was against us. people had looked to the Reichsmarshal to protect them, isn't that a fact? all means at their disposal would go against these attacks.
Q Now, what were the relations between Goering and Hitler at this time?
A May I ask to have the question repeated? I did not understand it clearly. change that came over the relationship as this bombing of German cities progressed? less worse than they had been before. Whether that was only based upon the conditions caused by the air warfare is not known to me. were you not the entire period of the war?
A I do not know what you consider close. The relation of a commanderin-chief to his adjutant, that is what it was.
Q Well, you were particularly friendly; he had great confidence in you and you had great regard for him. Isn't that a fact? motives which the Reichsmarshal may have had we did not have. telegram proposing to take over the government of Germany himself and was arrested and condemmed to death?