AAbout that I can't give you any information. going to ask about it. I am only getting from you the people who were there.
Now, let me remind you of another meeting. On the 9th of June 1941 there was a Conference Barbarossa for the attack on the Soviet Union. Do you remember that? Berchtesgaden.
A There was some conference, yes, but whether the 9th of June I don't know. But I did partake in one conference. who were there were the holders of these supreme positions and the Oberbefehlshaber, weren't they?
A That's correct, yes. General von Falkenhorst, who was the Army High Commander in Norway at that time. He was there.
A General von Falkenhorst?
A I couldn't tell you. It is quite possible, but I don't know.
Q General Stumpf of Air Fleet and, if I may, I don't know what the ranks were so I just give the names. Rundstedt, Reichenau, Stulpnagel, Schubert, Kleist, and of course Bock, Kluge, Guderian, Halder, Kesselring.
A The latter was certainly there. Stumpf and Falkenhorst, I can't tell you about those two. high positions to meet, wasn't it, to meet the Fuehrer?
Q Now, I just want you to help me on one other small point. Do you remember saying yesterday to Dr. Laternser that the members of this alleged group were far too concerned with high matters of strategy to have anything to do with Fifth Columnists? Do you remember saying that, words to that effect
Q I don't know if you know, but outside Germany the name Quisling has become an ordinary word of use as an alternative to Fifth Columnist. Did you know that?
You talk about a Quisling meaning a Fifth Columnist. You haven't heard that?
Q You know who Quisling was?
A Yes, indeed I do. Yes, of course I do.
Q Well, I'd just like you to listen to this, because it concerns your service. The Defendant Rosenberg, in January 1940, wrote to the Fuehrer as follows:
Assuming that his" -- that is, Quisling -- "statements would be of special interest to the Marshal of the Reich Goering for aero-strategical reasons, Quisling was referred to State Secretary Koerner by the Foreign Affairs Bureau." Did he come to you at all for aero-strategical reasons? Hitler in December 1939? Did you know that? German Navy are important members of this group of commanders-in-chief, aren't they?
A Supreme commanders? Yes. members of the group had more to do with Fifth Columnists than you knew. front when I mentioned that yesterday, and our talks were in a different sphere. SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I think I have finished, but perhaps your Lordship would allow me just over the adjournment to see if there is any small point.
My Lord, the other thing is this. I think we ought to put in these documents to which I have referred, because the Defense may want to deal with them later on. THE PRESIDENT: Yes, if they haven't already been put in. SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think some of the orders haven't been put in. I have read part of them into the record, and I will put them in.
THE PRESIDENT: They must be put in and marked then.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
ALBERT KESSELRING, resumed. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Rome on 23 March 1944. Do you remember that I had in mind--the bomb plot in Rome? Remember? At that time your Chief of Staff was General Westphal, and he reported the plot direct to General Better? Perhaps you will help me as to the pronunciation? B-u-e-
Q General what?
Q Didn't he report to a General Buettler, spelled B-e-t-t-l-e-r?
Q General von Buettler? report the matter to the Fuehrer, is that right? the defendant Keitel reported the matter to the Fuehrer?
Q The Fuehrer gave an order that either twenty or ten--you aren't quite sure which, but you rather think twenty--Italians should be killed?
(There was a noise in the court-room.)
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will begin Again. killed for every one German involved in the plot isn't that right? correct.
Q Can you remember, Witness, whether it was twenty or ten now?
A I assume ten, but I don't know the exact number. I assume ten.
The competent authority for Rome was General von Mackensen, wasn't it? commander of Rome was subordinate to him. man called Katler, wasn't it?
Q What was he? An obergruppenfuehrer or something like that? inquiry directed into this incident from your intelligence officer whose name was Zolling, don't you?
Q And you also got a report from Kapler himself, did you not? the people who have been adjudged were there.
Q Didn't Kapler tell you that he had executed 382 people? direct information and had no direct conversation with Kapler.
Q Are you sure of that?
AAt the end I wish to emphasize I conversed with him by 'phone after I arrived at the theatre of operations, and this report was given me, but direct communication I do not recall. I do remember that later on, perhaps eight to ten days later, we had a meeting and told him that I was grateful to him that this rather distasteful matter had been taken care of, which was just and morally free.
Q Let us see what you had to be grateful about. You were interrogated about this on the 8th of January. Do you remember being asked this question?
"Then Zolling didn't tell you that all this number that were executed had previously been convicted of some crimes punishable by death?" and you answered, "Yes, I said that. All right, yes, he did that. Even Kapler had told me that."
number of people, 382 I suggest, who had been guilty of other crimes and executed them as a reprisal for the bomb plot, isn't that right? to death.
Q This has already been put to you. This is Kapler's account, that of the 382, 176 had committed acts punishable by death; 22 were people whose cases were marked "closed"; 17 had been sentenced to terms of labor; 4 had actually been condemned to death; 4 had been arrested near the scene of the crime. That made 223.
Didn't Kapler say to you, "Later the number of victims rose to 325 and I decided to add 57 Jews"? Didn't Kapler give you these figures? in consequence of the order to kill ten Italians, or maybe twenty Italians, for one German who had been killed? we were concerned with people who had already been convicted and sentenced.
Q But it didn't make any difference to you whether they had been convicted for the bomb outrage or for any other offense?
A The situation was as follows: This battle was raging heavily, and at this period of time there was a bombing attack against this sector. From Roman circles matters had been handled in a most mild way of treatment, and the case on the German side was so that Mackensen (?) and others were concerned to ease the situation, and something had to be done on one side, and on the other side something had to be done which would prevent measures of this kind, that is, a branding for the public, an announcement that something could not be done against the German Army without drawing the consequences of these acts, and the vital point for me was not whether Mr. X or Mr. Y was concerned in this plot. This question for me was miner. The problem of prior importance was to have public opinion on both sides quieted and satisfied.
might say "terrorize" the population, so that they would not repeat or do anything against the German army. and I did not use suppression to my knowledge, and I would like to repeat in one case, if I may say so, had ideal friendship conditions with the Italians, if I may be permitted to say so, and I had a reason to be interested in promoting friendship rather than enmity, and I intervened only and in a decisive matter if, in a brief period of time, the best points were to be furthered. to the Italians this morning and I am not going back to them. I only want to ask you one other point about which perhaps you will be able to relieve my mind. On the 2nd of November, 1943, were you the commanding general in Italy, that is, after you became-
A May I add something to point 1? whether you were the commanding general in Italy the 2nd of November, 1943? Were you?
A Yes. I was. British commandos taken prisoner at Peskara were to be given special treatment?
Q That means murder, special treatment; it means that they were killed by the SS?
A No. it does not. I beg your pardon. As I have already mentioned before. these people were not shot but when they were wounded, were taken to a hospital and, as far as I recall, into an internment camp if they were unhurt. three, according to your telegram, got special treatment and nine others were taken to hospitals.
I was going to ask you about these taken to hospitals. What did you do with people who came under the Kommando Order who were taken to hospitals? of the Hague Convention, they were treated according to the principle of this Convention. Order was in accordance with the Hague Convention. We know what the Kommando Order was, that people taken as commandos were to be shot. What I am asking you is that supposing some commandos had the misfortune to be wounded, what happened to them?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute:
THE WITNESS: I would like to answer.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it coming through now?
DR. LATERNSER: I cannot understand the question, your Honor.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Very well, I will repeat the question. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE:
Q After Hitler's Kommando Order, what happened to commandos who were unfortunate enough to be wounded? but as I stated before already, these orders in this case--I believe the collaboration of Jodl was in this case, that a normal procedure was followed. practice of the SS to kill out of hand new-born Jewish babies in hospitals. Can you give me your assurance that commando troops who were wounded and taken to hospitals were not killed out of hand? any such matters and would not have tolerated them.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution have any further crossexamination?
Then, Dr. Stahmer, do you wish to re-examine?
DR. STAHMER (Counsel for Defendant Goering): The British Prosecution has just raised new facts which have not been known up to this time, especially about the shooting of hostages, and this happened in Italy in the partisan combat and for which the Defendant Goering seems to have been made responsible or seems to be made responsible. For this matter, there has been submitted further documents. the facts as well as to the serious accusations and wish to put the following questions to the witness. After a thorough examining of the material, I will wish to submit motions or requests and reserve the right, respectfully, that if I need further questions, whether I may have access to this witness again. If need be, naturally I will be satisfied to ask for the absolute minimum of testimony in the framework of the accusations just made, in order to prevent a prolongation of this proceeding.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal thinks that you must re-examine the witness now and that if you wish to make an application hereafter to recall the witness you will have to show very strong grounds for doing it. You may make written application to recall the witness at a later stage, but I would point out to you that the cross-examination of this witness has not been solely relevant to the case of the Defendant Goering. He is a member of the General Staff and, as it was pointed out to him at the opening of one part of the cross-examination, he is one of the accused persons as such and the evidence, therefore, may be relevant to Goering, or it may have been relevant to the General Staff. Is that clear to you?
DR. STAHMER: Yes, I quite follow, but I am only put questions if I am in complete command of the facts. I am not in such a position at this time because documents were referred to which were completely unknown to me and, as far as I know, the Prosecution should present this material to us.
THE PRESIDENT: Documents were put to the witness and, as I say, the Tribunal will consider any application which you make hereafter to have this witness recalled, but you may continue now with your re-examination and finish with the witness.
DR. STAHMER: At present I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then the witness can retire.
(The witness retired.)
DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW): Mr. President this morning, through a member of the prosecution and through the present announcement of Mr. President, I noted that the witness was called a defendant twice. I believe that that is not correct, because he functioned as a witness and the individual is not indicted but just the group, and I do not believe it quite correct to call him adefendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, possibly it was an error to call him an accused person, but he is a member of the General Staff. I rather think that Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe made it clear that he meant only a member of the group, which the Indictment asked the tribunal to declare criminal. That is all that is meant, and I was only pointing out to Dr. Stahmer that the questions which have been asked were not necessarily relevant to the case of the defendant Goering, but might be relevant and relevant alone to the case of the General Staff.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I appreciate the position of the individual general. I just wish to prevent that assumption, even though it is thought that they should be called accused or defendants, I wish to prevent that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. STAHMER: If the High Tribunal agree, I wish to call the former Reichsmarshal, Goering, to the witness stand. as follows:
Q Will you give your name please?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.) BY DR. STAHMER:
Q When were you born and where?
WorldWar, but briefly, please.
A Normal education, first tutored at home; then cadet corps education; then active officer.
Just a few points which are decisive about my later life. The position of my father was the first governor of Southwest Africa. His friends had powerful connections abroad, especially two British statesmen, Rhodes and Chamberlain. Then the strong affection of my father towards Bismarck. connection between Austria and Germany. regiment.
Q In what position did you participate in the first World War? and after October 1914 I was aircraft reconnaissance man. Then in 1915 I was a leader, that is, reconnaissance flight man, on bomber reconnaissance work, and then in the autumn of 1915 I was a fighter pilot. Then I was seriously wounded in aerial combat. After my health was restored I was a leader of a fighter squadron, and after the death of von Richthofen I became the commander of the then very famous Richthofen Squadron.
Q What war decorations did you receive? the Carl Frederic Order, and the Order Pour Le Merite, which was the highest decoration possible. know Hitler.
A I would like to put a hypothesis or condition before I go on. after the defeat in the first World War my squadron was demobilized and the demand to enter the Reichswehr was refused by me because from the beginning I was opposed in every way to the reaction and to the republic; I could not have combined this with my inner convictions; therefore I went abroad to find a position. After a few years I wanted to come back to my own country, and spent quite some time at a hunting lodge in the mountains and studied. In some way I wanted to participate in the fate of my country, but as an officer I could not do it for the reasons above mentioned and would not do it.
These hypotheses or conditions I wanted to establish. I attended the university at Munich and studied history and political science. I lived in the neighborhood of Munich and settled down there with my wife. Then one day, on a Sunday in November or October of 1922, the expedition was started of our military leaders to this protest meeting or announcement at Munich, and to this protest announcement I went as a spectator without actually participating. gave speeches. Toward the one Hitler appeared. I had briefly heard his name before and wanted to hear what he had to say. He declined to speak. It was pure coincidence that I was near. He wanted unity. He did not want to disturb the unity of this announcement, and did not see himself in a position to do so, as he said, these were really mild citizens, and he did not wish to take the word from them and send off protests, protests which had no weight. This made quite an impression on me because I was of the same opinion. could hear Hitler speak, for every Monday evening it was his custom to have meetings. I attended, and there Hitler spoke in connection with the announcement about Versailles, the peace of Versailles, and the refusal of Versailles. would be logical only if there was power which could put weight behind the protest. days following I went to the business office of the NSDAP. At that time I knew nothing of the program of the NSDAP; I knew only that it was a very small party. I had also looked into the other parties and their programs. After, at a national meeting - I had no political convictions, but voted democrat. Then alter I saw whom I had elected I took no more notice of politics; kept myself apart from it.
Finally I saw a man who had a serious and definite aim. I just wanted to speak with him to see if in any way I could assist him. He received me at once, and he was very grateful and considered it a stroke of good fortune that we should meet.
We spoke about the things which were dear to our hearts -- the defeat of our fatherland -- and that we could not be content with the situation.
The chief theme at this conversation was Versailles. I told him that so far as I was concerned everything that I had and was he could have and dispose of me and my person in the most vital and decisive manner. And I wish to oppose the Treaty of Versailles. received a strong impression and which I considered as a condition was the fact that he told me at length it was not possible under the conditions then prevailing; only those things which were considered natural at that time, may it be political, the so-called national party, or those who call themselves nationalists, or the then existing societies or clubs, fighting clubs, the free corps, and so forth, carry weight.
With then alone it was not possible to make a complete change, as long as the mass of the German labor was against these things.
Germany was to be resurrected only if the masses of German labor were behind one, and, carried by the broad masses of the people to resurrect the will to freedom against the shackles of the dictates of Versailles, and that only in a unification of thenational concept and of the putting of a national aim this could be done. Socialism on one side and socialism on the other. These two concepts were to be united, and that nationalism and the citizenry and the socialist masses could be comprehended into one idea, and that there was to be a new unit of bearing of these thoughts. to help him in one point from the beginning, to assist him, and that within the Party, as small as it was, there was a special selection which he had made of such people who were the most convinced followers, and who were to disseminate the ideas without reservation. were, and that in the meetings he could just make his points, since his meetings had to be protested. To protect meetings from rioters end dissenters, he had established the SA, and he was on the lookout for a leader who, according to his concepts, who, during the last war, could have risen-from the last war, which was just a few years behind, sc that the necessary authority could be present. He thought of a nan who had the proper merit would be either a flyer or some other officer, and now it seemed to him a good stroke of fortune that I should be the last commander of the Richthofen Squadron and should be at his disposal. the beginning to take a leading role, since it might appear that I had just entered because of this position. We finally reached an agreement that for one to two months officially I was to remain in the background, and then to take over the leadership, but that from that moment on I was to make my influence felt. I agree to that, and in that way I came to know Hitler.
Q And when was that?
A The end of October or the beginning of November in the year 1922. Either October or the beginning of November, 1922.
Q And when did you officially enter the Party?
A That was about the same date. Just a few days after that I became a registered member.
Q And what tasks did Hitler give you; that is, up until the November Putsch, 1923? the SA. We had to weld the SA into a definite unit, to form discipline, and to weld it into a completely reliable unit which would carry out my orders and the orders of Hitler. Up until that point it had just been a club which had been active but which had lacked discipline and shape. I was concerned right from the beginning to bring into the SA these members of the Party who were young and who were ideally minded enough to give their free time and their personality to these matters, for at that time it was very hard for these brave men, because, after all, we were very small and cur opponents were very powerful, and even in those days these men had to suffer all sorts of things. knew that among labor many members were to be incorporated into the SA. in having cur meetings, which were held in Munich and the upper regions of Bavaria, which was a very small territory, and to have these meetings in peace without disturbance. In most cases we succeeded. Sometimes, perhaps, we had a mass of cur opponents present, and at that time there were still weapons, because of the war which was in the not too far distant past. Critical situations arose, and we had to send for reinforcements to other localities. opposition became stronger and stronger, and we saw that the then Bavarian regime wanted to travel a different path from that of the Reich. The Reich regime was strongly Marxist, but the Bavarian regime was far from that. It was a citizenry party.
Then in Bavaria the regime was suddenly changed. Von Kahr was taken into the government, and this man had all authority for the Bavarian government. There was a conflict with the Reichswehr. The 7th Reichswehr Division, stationed in Bavaria, was freed from an oath of loyalty to the Reich and had to give an oath of loyalty to Kahr.
The same thing applied to the Bavarian police. national societies, which were half military and, of course, were armed. The whole thing was directed against Berlin and, as we expressed it, against the Republic. We could agree up to a certain point.
On a Sunday, the 9th of November, there was a large parade at Munich. The Reichswehr, the police, and the whole Bavarian regime was there. We were too. Suddenly, at this parade we saw that the figure in the foreground was not Mr. von Kahr but the Bavarian Crown Prince, Ruprecht, We were dismayed, and the suspicion arose among us that Bavaria wished to go her separate way, a way which would lead to almost a secession of Bavaria from the Reich regime. But we were intent on having anything but such a step. We wanted a strong Reich, a unified Reich, but we wanted it cleansed of those things and parties which were then ruling it.
We were mistrustful about this parade to Berlin. When this became a certainty, and Mr. von Kahr called this meeting in the Buerger Brau Cellar, it was thelast hour to prevent and frustrate those plans.
Then, the 9th of November, 1923, materialized very shortly. But I personally am concerned, and I never refused to acknowledge this. I was always ready to take part in each revolution, no matter what the origins were, a revolution against the so-called November State, and for this task I had always put my services at disposal. close the first chapter.
Q Then, after that time, did you meet Hitler again?
A Then I went to Austria and was in a hospital. There was a case before the German People's Court regarding the 9th of November, and Hitler was indicted, and all those who had been apprehended. I had been very seriously wounded and had been in upper Bavaria for several days, had been brought to the border, arrested, and then the Bavarian police brought me back. I asked Hitler at that. time, in those days, whether I was to be present at the court proceedings. He urgently asked me not to do that, and I agreed. In this manner the proceedings could not be held behind closed doors, because I had made the statement that if that were done I would make a suitable publication.
Then, after my recuperation, I spent about a year in Italy. In the year 1926 or 1927 there was a general amnesty for an illegal, if I may so say, proceedings which had taken place and for the people who had participated.
This amnesty was granted, and I could return to Germany. conversation at Berlin. I was then not active in the Party, but I wanted to have an independent position once more.
Then I was not in connection with Hitler for months. Before the Reichstag elections of 1928 in May, Hitler had me called in and told me he wanted me to be a representative for the Reichstag and whether I was agreed. He asked me and I said, "Yes."
Q Had you entered the SA?
A No, at that time I had no connection with the SA. In the meantime there had been a change of membership, and the new leader, Mr. von Ffeffer, wanted to keep his position and did not want me to resume a close connection with the SA. the SA?
AAfter 1923 my active work in the SA was completed. After the resumption of power, at a later date, some honorary positions were established. I received the highest rank as an SA honorary member. period of time on was a speaker for the Party. time it was not limited to Bavaria, but had spread to the whole Reich.
Q Was it prohibited after 1923?
Q And was this prohibition rescinded? to Germany. But in any case it had apread over all of Germany and was now essential. units, and I would like to point out that especially active was the Red Front, which was a Communist organization, one of our strongest opponents. There was constant friction, and they tried to create disturbances at our meetings. Then in addition there was the Reichsbanner, the organization of the Social Democrats. There was the Stahlhelm; that was a national organization tending to the right, and then there was the SA, which may be mentioned in the same capacity. heavily and often. Most of the SA people were small people, workers, men who only for idealogical reasons took part and who worked in the evenings, late at night without receiving a cent in payment, who believed in their Fatherland and therefore worked with us.
They were often heavily wounded and some of them were killed. They were persecuted by the Government. They could not be officials; an official could not be in the SA. They were under constant, terrific pressure and I would like to emphasize that I had the highest respect and affection for these men, these SA men, who, not as has been pictured here, were not just decided upon doing something cruel. But they were men who were willing to undergo the greatest difficulties, because of their ideology, and therefore left many of their own things undone to carry through their ideals. until the taking over of power?
A I had no office in the Party. I was never a political leader and that may sound strange. I was a member of the Reichstag, as I have already mentioned, and of course was a speaker, and by that I mean I travelled from city to city and tried to do what I could to spread the Party, to strengthen it, to bring in new members and to bring Communists and Marxists as members into our Party in order to get a broad base amongst the people in the Party. and we had to electioneer and hold many speeches, perhaps three an evening or all through the night--I became a member and our Party was the strongest in the Reichstag and I was elected as President of the Reichstag. With that I took over a political task. Party was on the increase and was growing heavily, the Fuehrer talked to me about the after. He said that he would like to be independent of a Party Office and that he would like an independent deputy who could direct political meetings, and this leader was not to be tied down to any particular office. He asked me whether I was interested in this office, especially since I was living in the capital, that is, Berlin.