the number of parties, continuous disquiet caused by elections. And, in that connection, a complete alteration of conceptions about authority and responsibility had arisen. The authority was with the masses; responsibility was with the leader. It should have been the opposite. it was important to employ all forces in a positive sense and to use the leadership principle; that is to say, authority at the top, working downwards, and responsibility at the lower level, working upwards. I consider that the only possibility. Naturally, I realize the fact that a principle can lead to the extreme.
May I use a parallel: Take the positive position of the Catholic Church, which is still relying on the leadership principle. And I think I may add to that that Russia, too, could not have survived the great difficulties of this war without the leadership principle. take place in full agreement with Reichspresident von Hindenburg? did take place in agreement with him. And as far as constitutional agreement from him was necessary in paragraph 41, that agreement was obtained.
Q Was the National Socialist Government recognized by foreign governments? remained recognized until the end, unless hostilities caused the diplomatic connections to be severed. rallies in Nurnberg? as being the great event and demonstration of cur movement They were invited and they arrived completely. Not every year, but one I recollect exactly.
Q Until what year? of political opponents?
A Laws were issued which decreed confiscation of the property of people hostile to the state; that is to say, of people we declared to be so.
The property of the Communist Party, with its accessories; the property of the Social Democratic Party, was confiscated. But not--and I want to emphasize that-but not the private property of the members or even leaders of these parties. On the contrary, a number of leading Social Democrats who had been ministers or civil servants were given their full pension. In fact, later on it was increased.
Q How do you explain the attacks against the trade unions? Did you proceed against free workers in that connection?
A First of all, the trade unions: Trade unions in Germany were, in their leading majority, very closely connected with the Social Democratic Party, and increasingly with the influ ence and activities of the communists, and through that with the Communist Party. If not formally, then in fact, there were organs, various active ones at that, of these parties with trade unions.
I am not talking about the masses of the people. I am talking about the group who were leading these trade unions. In addition, there was a smaller Christian trade union as well. these leaders with those parties we regarded as our opponents--they agreed with them to such an extent that they did not fit into our new state in any way. Consequently, the organizations of trade unions were dissolved, and the workers were given the organization of the German Workers Front instead. never take place. To the contrary, I am convinced that only we gave to the German worker real freedom, which consisted, in the first place, of his right to work, which we secured for him, and that his whole position in the state was particularly emphasized. characteristics of a freedom which I probably misunderstand, and we removed them. Freedom on one side and barring workers on the other. That could not tally with the right to work, and it would not agree with the duty to work, which every citizen has as a duty towards his nation. These two elements, which contributed to the number of unemployed, we removed and replaced with an enormous labor program.
Creation of work was another predominant point. Our social program has been adopted by others, though under a different name.
I do not propose to elaborate on their social programs at any length but it was the first time that the workers had the right to paid holidays and that I would only add as an aside.
Considerable recreational facilities were created for the workers. Enormous sums were set aside for workers' settlements. The whole living standard of the worker was raised. At that time the worker had been exhausted and exploited. He hardly had any property of his own because of years of unemployment and he had to sell everything or pawn it and thus, whout going into detail, I would like to say finally, that we havenot destroyed free workers but that we have liberated the worker and have relieved him of his unemploy ment.
Q You talked about the Roehm revolt yesterday. Who was Roehm and what was that revolt? that is to say, he was responsible to the Fuehrer, who was Supreme Commander of the SA as far as the matters of the SA were concerned and led it in theFuehrer's name. lile his predecessor Pfeffer, a more revolutionary way to be adopted whereas the Fuehrer, as I said earlier, desired legal developments, the final victory of which could be expected. to take into his hands the Reich Army Ministry. The Fuehrer refused that pointblank since he did not wish a political leader for the armed forces in any way or wished any political influences to be brought to bearon them. The differences between the armed forces and the Roehm group do not distinctly refer to a difference between the armed forces and the SA, that did not exist. It was merely a question of having these leaders in common and I refer to the SA leadership which did at that time actually exist. He desired to remove the majority of the generals and higher officers who had been members of the German Army all the time. It was his view that these officers did not offer a guarantee for the new state, since, as he expressed it, their backbone had been broken in the course of the years and since they were no longer capable of being active elements of the new National Socialist State.
this connection. the Reehm-minded people were (directed in a different direction and towards a revolutionary trend. They were opposed to what they called reaction. They desired to adopt a more leftish attitude. They were increasingly opposed to the church and very strongly opposed to the Jews. Altogether, however, and I only refer to the clique consisting of certain persons, they wished to carry out a revolutionary act; that Roehm placed all his people in leading positions in the SA and that the decent elements were removed and that the decent SA, without its knowledge, was misled, is a well known fact.
If perpetrations occurred during that time then they always occurred in connection with the same persons, that is to say, firstly originating from the Berlin SA leader Ernst, secondly the Breslau leader Heines, and the Munich man Stettin.
and told me that he heard that an action against the Fuehrer and his suite was being planned so that the Third Reich could expeditiously be replaced by the final Fourth Reich, an expression which these people used. I myself was urged and asked not only to place guards of a police regiment outside my house but to have a guard of honor of the SA as well. I had agreed and later on I heard from the commander of that troop just what the purpose of that guard of honor had been, namely that after a certain date they were to arrest me.
I knew Roehm very well. I had him brought to me. I put the things which I had heard openly to him. I reminded him of our mutual fight and I asked him to have extreme faith in the Fuehrer. He raised roughly the same arguments which I have just stated. But he assured me that, of course, he was not thinking of doing anything against the Fuehrer. Shortly afterward I received further news to the effect that he had close connections with those circles who also were strongly opposed to us and that was, first of all the group around the former Chancellor Schleicher, There was the group around the party member who had been excluded, and ex-member of the German Parliment, Strasser. There were the people who had been members of the former trade unions and had extended very far to the political left. I felt it my duty to consult the Fuehrer on the subject. I was astonished when he told me that he too knew about these things and that he considered them to be a threat. He said that he wished however, to await further developments and observe them carefully. described it here and I can leave it out. I was given the order in northern Germany to proceed immediately against those men of the group Roehm. Some of them were ordered to be arrested. As far as Ernst is concerned, the SA leader of Pomerania and two or three others, the Fuehrer ordered in the course of that day that they were to be executed. He himself went to Bavaria where the last meeting of a number of Roehm leaders was taking place at the time and arrested personally Roehm and these people at Wiessee.
At that time this whole matter presented a real threat since some SA units who had been deceived and given wrong orders had been armed.
At one spot only there was a very short fight and some SA leaders were shot. I deputized the arrest to the police which in Prussia then was under Himmler's and Heydrich's lead. When the headquarters of the SA leader Ernst, in Berlin, were occupied we found in the cellars of that headquarters more machine pistols then the whole Prussian Order Police had in their possession. observed at Wiessee, who should be shot and the order for Ernst, Heidebrecht and some of the other of Roehm's followers was issued. There was no order to shoot the other people who were ordered to be arrested, In the course of the arrest of the former Reich Chancellor Schleicher the killing of himself and his wife did occur. An investigation into this event took place and it was found that when Schleicher was arrested, according to the statements of two witnesses, he reached for a pistol to kill himself, possibly, whereupon these two men raised their pistols and Mrs. Schleicher threw herself upon one of them to hold him and he maintained that at that moment his revolver went off.
We deeply regretted that event.
had been shot as well, even some people who had nothing at all do with that Roehm revolt.
The Fuehrer came to Berlin that same evening. After I heard that later during that night, I visited him at lunchtime of the following day. I asked him to issue an order immediately that any further execution was prohibited by him, the Fuehrer, although two further people who were strongly involved and who had been ordered to be executed by the Fuehrer were still alive. These people were, in fact, left alive. I asked him to do that because I was worried that the whole matter would assume larger proportions, as, in fact, it had done to some extent, and I told the Fuehrer that under no circumstances should there be any further bloodshed. in my presence, and it was communicated to all departments concerned. The action was then announced in the Reichstag, and through the Reichstag and the Reichspresident recognized as an action in an emergency, and approved of. But of course, at the same time, it was regretted that, as in all such incidents, there had been a certain amount of perpetrations.
The number of victims has often been exaggerated. As for as I can remember exactly today, 72 or 76 people were concerned, and the majority of them were executed in Sourthern Germany. attitude of the Party and the State toward the churches?
A Certainly. But as my final remark on the Roehm Putsch, I should like to emphasize that I assumed full responsibility for the actions taken against those people by order of the Fuehrer, which I had passed on -- and I am referring to Ernst, Heidebrecht, and several others -- and that even today I am of the opinion that I acted correctly. That was confirmed by the Reichspresident, but no such confirmation was necessary to convince me that here was a danger to the State with which I had to deal.
On the attitude towards the churches. the Fuehrer is attitude was a generous one, at least at the beginning, absolutely generour. I would not like to say that it was positive in the sense that he himself was a convinced follower of any confession, but it was generous and positive in the sense that he recognized the necessity of churches.
Although he himself was a Catholic, he wished that there should be a stronger position for the Protestant church in Germany, since two-thirds of Germany was Protestant.
The Protestant church, however, was divided into county churches; various small differences were made, and that was the reason why they fought against each other and had a war for 30 years, but as far as we were concerned, it did not appear quite so decisive and important. They called themselves Reformed Union, Lutheran -- I cannot say myself just how many of them there were. highest clergyman of the Prussian Church, but I did not concern myself with these matters a great deal. he wanted to realize it by appointing a Reichsbishop so that there should be a high Protestant leader with the high Catholic leaders in the Reich. To begin with, he left the choice to the Protestant churches, but they would not agree. Finally, they produced one man and that was the only nan who didn't suit us. The man who became Reichsbishop hap had the Fuehrer's confidence to a larger degree than all the other bishops in the Reich. cluded through Herr von Papen. Shortly after that agreement was concluded by Herr von Papen, I visited the Pope myself, I had numerous connections with the higher Catholic clergy because of my Catholic mother, and in that manner I could enter both. I am a Protestant. all represented it and I represented it - and that was that politics should be removed from the churches. I didn't consider it right -- and that I would like to say quite openly -- that one day the priest in the church would humbly concern himself with the sould of his sheep and that the Following day, in Parliament, he would make a move or less belligerent speech. concentrate on their sphere of influence, and refrain from getting involved in political matters.
By having political parties with strong religious interests in Germany, a considerable muddle had arisen here in Germany, and that is the explanation of just how it was possible that with these political opponents placing themselves originally on the parliamentary level of election campaigns, belligerent moods against the church did occur in connection with some of our 5855 people.
You must not forget that such election fights and speeches took place between political representatives of our Party and clergymen who were representatives of those Parties which were closely tied to the Church. that a more violent faction--if I may use that expression in this connection--did not forget this fight, and they, in their turn, were once more transferring the fight to yet another level. But the Fuehrer's attitude was that the churches should be given the possibility of developing and existing. which gradually is absorbing more or less the majority of the whole German nation, and which now, in its active political part, also contains the politically active persons of Germany, in spite of the leadership principle does not create the same conceptions everywhere. The speed, the methods, the attitude, are always different, and such large movements, even if they are authoritatively led, must contain certain groups which are the result of certain problems, and if I am to name the group in this connection, which within the pledge of churches still represented a political, I won't say danger, but undesirable institution, then that was a group in which two personalities became predominant, Himmler on one side and Bormann, particularly later--much later than Himmler--on the other side.
Himmler's motives were less of a political than mystical nature. As far as Bormann is concerned, his aims were much more clear-cut. It was clear too, that from among a large group of gauleiters, one or another might be more keenly interested in that fight against the Church. There were a number of Gaus whore everything was in fine shape so far as the churches were concerned, and there were others where there was a keen fight against the churches. to demonstrate my attitude and to have a certain calming influence.
Thus, in the Prussian Ministerial Council I called in certain men in whom I had a great deal of confidence, including a high Protestant and a high Catholic priest. always been a member of the church, and as far as functions which you carry out in church are concerned, such as marriage, christening, and funerals, they have always been carried out in my house by the church. this fight of opinions who were too weak to know what they should do. My view was to show them that the second man in the State went to church, that he had himself christened, that he had himself married, that he had himself confirmed, so when they saw that, they would do that as wall. From the number of letters which I received as a result, I could see that I had done the right thing.
As time went by, in other spheres as 'well as this, the situation became more critical, and on one other occasion during the early years of this war, I had a discussion on it with the Fuehrer. I told him that we should now concern ourselves with the fact that every German was doing his duty and that every soldier was bravely going to his death if need be, and if, in that connection, his religious belief could be of assistance to him, be he of this or that religion, that could only be an advantage. The Fuehrer agreed absolutely. I was in the Air Force and deliberately had no clergyman parties of my own. I was of the opinion that every member of the Air Force should go to the priest in whom he had the most confidence.
That was continually communicated to the soldiers. As far as the church was concerned, I told them that I considered praying a good thing, "But you should pray in the churches and not in the barracks."
In that manner I eliminated from the Air Force any religious upset, and I insured complete liberty of conscience for everyone. the reason. It happened during the last two or three years of the war. This may be due to the fact that in some of the occupied territories the clergymen and that was particularly the case in Polish districts and Czech districts -- were strongly nationalist representatives and that here clashes arose between those on the political level with those on the religious level, which in turn, of curse, would affect the churches. Anyway, I do not know whether this was one of the reasons, but I can consider that it probably was. to the churches. In fact, he told me on one occasion that in certain things even as a leader you cannot assert yourself completely, if certain necessities are unclarified, and religious belief as far as the reconstruction of the churches is concerned, will probably be talkedabout and thought about a great deal. But he said he himself neither thought that he was to be a church reformer nor did he feel that anyone of his political leaders should be active on that level. and the occupied territories, as you said -- Poland and Czecho-Slovakia -- were taken to concentration camps. Do you know anything about that? concentration camps. The case of Niemoeller was common knowledge. I don't want to go into it in detail, because it is well known the later years when the fight increased, for making political speeches in the churches. They were criticizing measures of the State and Party, and depending on the severity of that criticism the police would then interfere. clergymen, that as long as they talked in church they should be allowed to say what they wanted; but if they made political speeches outside the churches then he could interfere and proceed against them just as he would in connection with any other people who were opposed to the State. A number of clergymen who went very far in their criticism were not arrested.
have heard about it; and I said earlier on, that this did not occur on the church level, because they were clergymen, but that it occurred because they were in their point of view strongly nationalist and consequently often were involved in actions hostile to the occupied forces.
Q The Party program included two points. The first was the Jewish problem. What was your basic attitude towards that? me under all circumstances to refer to certain principles and conations. After Germany's collapse in 1918, Jewry became supremely prominent in Germany, in all sectors of life, but particularly the political picture; in general culturally, but particularly in the political field. The fighting men came back from the front. They had nothing. They faced nothing, and now they saw a large number of the Jewish element who had come in during the war from Poland and the East, in positions, particularly economic positions. It is known that under the influence of the war and its business and demobilization, considerable possibilities existed of doing business. There was inflation, deflation -- with all that, enormous transfers, shifting of weight of capital, had taken place. and more appeared in public, so that they invited certain comparisons: the figures they represented, the positions they controlled, in comparison to the German people generally -- add to this that particularly that the party which had been turned down for their anti-national attitude also had a number of Jewish leader who were in no proportion to the total number o f Jews. always considered German. There all the Social Democrat leaders were practically exclusively Jews. They played a very considerable part in politics, particularly in connection with the left-wing parties, and they also became very prominent in the press and political life. all national conceptions and ideals took place. I only remind you of all the publications, articles, which dragged things into the mud; I remind you of the disproportion in the field of art which was also carried out in that way; I remind you of those that lowered morale at the front and flung mud at the ideal of the brave soldier.
In fact, I could quote endless examples of such articles, books, representations and so forth which would lead too far afield, and I am in fact not too well informed on the subject; but anyway, all that caused a defensive attitude, a defensive movement, which was by no means created through National Socialism but which had existed before. prominent after the war when the influence of Jewry became so prominent and predominant. so differently from the German field, that here too there was a considerable split. Add to that, particularly in economy, in the economic field, disregarding the Western industry, there occurred an almost exclusive lead of Jewry and that that lead was in the hands of elements who were even condemned by the old Jewish families in the country. by a few simple people. As far as I know, when it was drafted Adolf Hitler wasn't even participating or not yet even in leadership. When that program was drafted, that point was included in it, which at that time was much in the foreground amongst large sections of the German people, as a defensive point. So that before that, there had been the Raeterepublic; the murder of hostages had taken place. You must understand that this, as a program created in Munich by simple people, would contain that point as a defensive measure. were prominent in the lead, and therefore when the program became known, the Party laughed at. But a concentrated attack of the entire Jewish press and Jewish-influenced press took place, which was directed against the movement. Everywhere Jewry was in the lead in the fight against National Socialism. In the press, be it in politics, be it in the cultural life -- wherever it was -- National Socialism was ridiculed; be it in the economic sphere he who was a National Socialist would not get a position, or the National Socialist business-man could not get supplies or advertising.
These are conditions that became prominent at the time. It all resulted in a strong defensive attitude on the part of the Party.
It led right at the beginning to an increase in influence which had originally not been intended in their program. The program wished one thing very clearly: That Germany should be led by Germans. And it was desired that the leadership and the forming of Germany's political state should be conducted by German people who could reflect the sentiments of the German people much more than people of a different race. Originally it was merely proposed to exclude Jewry from politics and the leadership of the State.
Later on the cultural field was added to that, and that was because of the very strong fight which had developed particularly in that sphere between Jews on one side and National Socialism on the other.
Jews and Jewry, I would still be in a position to quote papers, books, periodicals and features on the side of the opponents which are insults that can not in any way be equalled or excelled upon. All that would obviously lead to a deep controversy. Jews who had taken part in the world war and who had been decorated were considered, and theyremained unaffected by measures directed against Jews in civil service. sphere, later on the cultural sphere. The Nurnberg laws had the purpose of clarifying the separation of races, and in particular to define the conception of a mixed person for the future, since the idea of the half Jew or the quarter Jew led to continuous differences and a muddle. personal discussions with the Fuehrer regarding the conception of mixed persons and that I pointed out to the Fuehrer that once Germans and Jews were clearly separated, it would be possible to have yet another category between the two which in turn would be an unclarified section of the German people which would not stand on the same level with the other Germans. I suggested to him that here, by a general order, the conception of the person of mixed race should be excluded and that these people should be put on the same footing as other Germans. and he was adopting a perfectly positive attitude to my ideas. In that direction he had, in fact, given certain preparatory orders. After that the stormy days of the Sudeten crisis, Czechoslovakia, occupation of the Rhineland, Poland, arose, and the question of the mixed people moved into the background, but at the beginning of the war the Fuehrer told me that he was prepared to give this thing a positive solution, but only after the war.
The Nurnberg laws were to exclude for the future that conception of people of mixed race.
Consequently, it was planned in the penal paragraphs of the Nurnberg laws that never the women but always the man should be punishable, no matter whether the man was German or Jewish. The German woman or the Jewess could not be punished. After that quieter times came, and the Fuehrer always had the view that for the time being Jews should be admitted, not into the leading positions in the economy, but certainly in positions in the economy. Continuously increasing emigration should help to solve that problem. In spite of the continuous differences and disquiet which arose in the economic field, the Jews, therefore, remained untouched in their economic positions. later on did not really take place until the events of 1938 and then more so after the war had started, but here, once more, there was one group who was more radical, as far as the Jewish question was concerned, to whom the Jewish question was more in the foreground than to other groups of that movement. of National Socialism can be understood in various ways, and the various points of the program were of more importance to one and of less to another. In other words, one considered the point which was to make Germany strong and free as the most important one. Another might say that the Jewish point was the most important.
THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to break off? Dr. Stahmer, can you inform the Tribunal how much longer you think the defendant Goering will be in the examination in chief?
DR. STAHMER: I think that we shall finish in the course of tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: That is a very long time.
DR. STAHMER: I shall do my best to shorten it. I shall be anxious to shorten it.
(A recess was taken) BY DR. STAHMER:
Q What was your participation in the Nurnberg Laws of 1935? time when the Reichstag met here in Nurnberg, I announced these laws simultaneously with the law concerning the new banner, the Reich flag. Jewish race was part of the plan of aggressive war. and the destruction of the Jewish race was not originally planned. November 1938?
A I should like to refer to that briefly. I gathered yesterday, from the cross-examination of the witness Koerner, that a misunderstanding had arisen here. On the 9th of November the march on the Hall of Field Marshals (Feldherrnhalle) was celebrated. This march was repeated every year; the leaders of the movement met on that occasion. Koerner referred to that when he said that everybody came to Munich. It was the custom that after the march was over practically everybody met at the Town Hall in Munich for dinner, at which the Fuehrer was also present. since I used to utilize my stay in Munich on that occasion to attend to various other matters in the afternoon. Neither did I take part in that dinner on that occasion, nor did Koerner. He and I left in the evening in my special train and went to Berlin. As I heard later when the investigation was carried out, on the occasion of that dinner and after the Fuehrer left, Goebbels announced that the seriously wounded secretary of the Embassy in Paris had died of his wounds, and a certain amount of excitement occurred. As a result, apparently Goebbels used words concerning reprisals, and in his way he was probably the most outstanding representative of the anti-Semitic section. He probably gave the cause for the following events, but that was after the Fuehrer had left.