Perhaps, so as to complete the story, I may add that "SS" always means the economic department of the SS in this connection.
QWhat did Funk talk about at the time? Please, will you tell me whether he said exactly what should be kept?
AHe mentioned valuables which the SS had brought in from Eastern Territor ies and which were now in their collars and for which the SS desired safe-keepin to be carried out by us.
QBut the Defendant Funk, did he tell you in detail what these valuables were?
ANo, not in detail, but generally he said that they were valuables like gold, or silver, jewels and foreign currencies.
QGold, jewels, silver. I see.
AAnd may I add that gold and foreign currencies were, of course, to be surrendered to the Reichsbank in any case.
QGold or currency or jewels. I see. And that was supposed to be confiscated in the Eastern Territories?
AYes.
QDid the Defendant Funk tell you anything more in detail at the time as to why this confiscation had been carried out or whose articles they were that had been confiscated?
ANo, that wasn't mentioned. The talk, as I already said, was brief, and then it was interrupted.
QWhat did you reply?
AI said that this sort of business, since it was coming from the SS, was at least uncomfortable for us, and I stated that I had objections. And perhaps I may add here that in connection with such matters we were always rather reticent about such matters, particularly when they were matters which had to be dealt with by the foreign currencies department, customs department, or whenever any such official came to us.
Q What was the actual reason why you had objections, particularly to the case of the SS?
ABecause it was impossible to know what results and conclusions such a business connection might produce.
QBut, witness, that answer isn't sufficient for me. Does it mean -- it is connected with the fact that you or the defendant Funk didn't want to have anything to do with the SS at all or was there some other reason why you stated objections?
AYes. The first part of your question must be answered with "no". A principal opposition didn't exist; it couldn't exist because, after all, every German organization or institution had the local right to use the services of the Reichsbank. These special affairs and matters, however, which were confiscated, were similar to the confiscations carried out by the foreign currency department for instance, and they were uncomfortable because one never know just what the far-reaching effects might be.
QSo that, if I understood you correctly, that you had certain objections which you voiced. Please correct me if I state this wrongly. You raised objection because this sort of business might be somewhat uncomfortable for the Reichsbank and because it wasn't within the normal type of business you were doing and because you weren't any more keen on it than, for instance, you were keen on deposi made by the customs authorities or foreign currency authorities, which were confiscated; is that the reason?
AYes. But this conversation of our will have to be continued a bit more. It was said, you see, that one ought to assist the SS in handling the things Which they were depositing. It was clear from the beginning, and it had been said that foreign currency, and I think also stocks and shares and gold coins and such, you contained in these deposits and that the SS people didn't quite knew how to deal with these things.
QDid these articles arrive afterwards?
AYes; but then there was an intermediate situation which you must talk about. This conversation has been finished; and now the head of the economic department of the SS, whose name was Pohl -
QObergruppenfuehrer Pohl?
A Yes, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. He came to me. I asked him to came to my office, and there he told me, or repeated something which I had already known -he told me that he would like to see if we would as soon as possible take over these valuables.
QAnd what did you say?
AI confirmed what was discussed and I said "Please, will you name the of ficials from your department and I shall inform our department and they can discuss the technical details of the deal."
QAnd, if I may fill in the gap, what did the defendant Funk say? You've just mentioned, in connection with the first conversation, that you didn't want to take those things over because one might have a lot of trouble with such thing
AThis became subject to the somewhat wider conception of things which meant helping the SS, particularly -- and this must be emphasized -- since the matters were coming in for the account of the Reich.
QWas anything mentioned regarding the fact that these things particularly gold, should be utilized by the Reichsbank; lot's say melted down?
ANo, no, not in detail. It was merely said that the officials of the Reichsbank would offer their good services to the SS.
QBut I don't quite understand you. The good services mean that officials from the Reichsbank would take care of these valuables and would lock them away?
AYes.
QWere the services of your officials gone beyond that?
AYes, they were. They should because the SS people were to arrive and they would remove from the containers whatever was due to be surrendered.
QYou mean, for instance gold coins?
AYes.
QForeign currency?
AYes.
QI see, and all that.
So as to come back to the question I've already put, did you see what arrive. Did you see what the SS actually delivered?
AI, personally, no. This episode happened far from my office and in quite a different building downstairs, in the strong-rooms where I, as vice president wouldn't normally go at all.
Q As vice president did you go frequently into these safe-rooms or strong-rooms?
AIt was a habit of mine to go occasionally, perhaps sometimes every three months or even more seldom, and to walk th rough the strong-rooms whenever there was cause for that, say, for instance, when a visitor had to be conducted or when some new installation was to be discussed; when, in other words, something happened which would go beyond the normal business of the cashiers and strong-room personnel.
QBut you had nothing to do with that part of the Reichsbank as vice president?
AOf course not, no.
QAnd the same question witness, I want to put with reference to defendant Funk to you. Defendant Funk, who, in addition to everything else, was only half working in the Reichsbank, did he often go to the strong-rooms; if so, how often and for what reasons, and would he have seen what had been handed in by the SS?
AThe answer to that one is that occasionally Funk, too, would have gone to the safes, also on some special occasion, for instance, foreign visitors, or some such matter; how often is something I can't know. And whether he's seen the SS depositing something, I can't know either. It depends on whether the cashiers who were taking him around had pointed it out to him.
QAnd, witness, did you, yourself, see the things which came from the Reichsbank -- I beg your pardon, I didn't mean Reichsbank; I meant the SS Did yousee them yourself?
ANo, never.
QDid you believe that defendant Funk had seen them?
AWell, I can't, of course, know that, but it depends on whether the cashiers pointed out particularly that there is the deposit of the SS.
QWell, then, perhaps if I guess correctly, then you can't give us any information regarding how these SS matters were being kept, where they were stored or where their boxes were?
ANo, I don't know that.
QDid you talk about this whole business of the SS deposit more often, still more frequently, to Funk?
AAs far as I can remember, hardly, but it's probably the case that I would talk to him a second time, after Pohl had been in to see me.
It was, of course, my duty and my task to inform Mr. Funk about everything that happened.
QWere there discussions amongst the directors of the Reichsbank and was any special significance attached to it so that one might have had any cause to discuss this affair more frequently, or was that just an unpleasant sort of sideline?
ANo. During meetings of the directorate there were reports at the beginning about this matter, but that wasn't mentioned again.
QAnd you can, therefore, not recollect that later on you talked about it to Funk again but, if I understand you correctly, then it might be that, after the talk you had with the SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, you briefly referred to the matter again? Have I understood you correctly?
AYes.
QNow, witness, in your affidavit you are saying that amongst the articles which had been deposited by the SS -- this is under figure 5 by the way -- there were Jewelry, watches, spectacle frames, gold fillings, apparentl gold fillings means teeth or something like that, and other articles in large quantities, which the SS had taken away from Jewish victims in concentration camps and some other persons. How do you know that?
AI know that from my interrogation at Frankfurt.
QApparently you know it, therefore, because when you were interrogated in Frankfurt and after you had been apprehended you were told this?
AIt was shown to me.
QI see, it was shown to you. Earlier, as long as you were free and as long as you were vice president of the Reichsbank, you didn't know that?
ANo. And I want to repeat it again. We in the directorate never discussed the matter because it wasn't of any political currency or bank political significance.
QWitness, if at that time in 1942, you had known that these were articles which the SS had taken away from numerous concentration camp victims, would you have taken care of these things?
ANo, but in that case we would have brought about some decision regarding the attitude of the bank as a whole which should be adopted.
QWho would have made the decision?
AThe directorate of the Reichsbank as a body, and that decision would have been put before the president for his signature.
QHave you any idea -- you see, earlier this is something I must first of all deal with -- earlier on your affidavit is not expressed very clearly -- you see, earlier you had said that you had knowledge of this because the SS personnel tried to change this material for cash; today you are saying that you only heard about it after you were taken prisoner. Apparently, if I understand you correctly, there must be -
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Sauter, I do not understand why you say earlier. It is the sentence whichfollowed the sentence which you put to him.
DR. SAUTER:Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT:Why do you say earlier?
DR. SAUTER:In his affidavit, and if the wording of the affidavit is correct, if there aren't any misunderstandings -
THE PRESIDENT:What I am pointing out to you is that the first sentence roads like this: "The material deposited by the SS included all these items taken from Jews, concentration camp victims, and other persons by the SS." And then it goes on, "This was brought to our knowledge by the SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash." What you are now putting to him is that that acceptance was put to him earlier. At least that is what I understood you to say.
DR. SAUTER: No, today the witness has said that the fact that these things had been taken from concentration camp victims had not become known to him until he was interrogated at Frankfurt.
The affidavit, however, must be interpreted, in my opinion, as saying, or as if he wanted to say at the time that he had had such knowledge before his arrest and through the SS personnel. That is apparently not true. It is for that reason that I have asked the witness if this expression in the affidavit is not a misunderstand.
THE PRESIDENT:Go on. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q.Now, then, witness, if I can repeat this, it is correct, then, that the fact that these articles had belonged to concentration camp victims is something you only heard of during your interrogation?
A.Yes.
Q.And when did you know what was contained in these deposits; or, to pick out one thing, that there were gold teeth? When did you hear about that?
A.I did not hear about it at all when I was in my office. No reports from the cashier's office or the safe room were made to the Directorate regardint the details of this transaction.
Q.So that this matter did not become known to you until you were arrested?
A.The details, yes.
Q.I see. Thank you. Now, you mention some agreement that, according to Funk's statement, Himmler, the Reichsfuehrer of the SS, had made with the Reich Ministry of Finance. What do you know about this agreement?
A.That is the same thing which I mentioned before. It was clear from the beginning that the value of these things that were deposited with us was to be credited to the Ministry of Finance.
Q.Not the SS?
A.No, not the SS?
Q.Why not? The SS were the depositors, were they not?
A.Yes, but they were representing the view that their actions were being carried out in the name of and on behalf of the Reich and for the accounts of the Reich.
Q.Witness, do you know anything about the fact that these valuables which had been obtained in the East by some means or other, confiscated or through robberies perhaps, that they were, financially speaking to be placed at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance?
A.I did not quite understand the question. Are you referring to these very articles or confiscated articles in general?
Q.All valuables. I am here thinking of gold and foreign currency and such. All these valuables which had been got hold of by the SS in the East. Were they all to be placed at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance and not the Reichsbank?
A.Their value was redited to the Reich Ministry of Finance.
Q.In this connection, witness, I should like to show you two accounts. I don't know, have you seen them?
A.No.
Q.They are two accounts from the Cashier's office of your bank. Perha you can hadn it up to the witness, I should like you to have a look at them first of all, and then I should like you to tell me whether you had known, up to now, what this matter was all about.
A.These two photostatic copies I have seen before during my interrogations.
Q.Not earlier?
A.No, not earlier. These photostatic copies show something which was just discussed; namely, that the value of these articles was to be credited to the Chief Reich Cashier's Offic . That is the department in the Ministry of Finance.
Q.So that apparently this is in some way connected with this agreement, of which you have heard at some store, and this is due to the fact that eventually all these things belong o to the Reich Ministry of Finance and the Reich?
A.Yes, correct.
Q.I have one more question on the same subject. witness, I am interest in whether here, too, there is some misunderstanding.
In the affidavit there is the sentence according to which Funk told you that this matter, as it says here, should be kept absolutely secret.
You did not mention this point at all to us today, although you have the affidavit before you. What are you saying today? Is that true or is it a misunderstanding?
A.You mean the keeping of it secret? No; of course these matters were meant to be kept secret. After all, keeping secret applies to everything tha happens in a bank.
Q.Witness, that explanation does not quite satisfy us. During your interrogation of 3 May, did you say what is contained in this document; namel that the matter was to be kept absolutely secret, or did you express yourself differently?
A.No, the wording of the affidavit is correct, the matter was to be kept absolutely secret.
Q.But why?
A.Why? Because such matters are usually kept secret and are not publi ed, particularly since these things were coming from the East, and I am repea ing what I said before, and because our attitude regarding the confiscated articles was always that of trying to keep out of these matters altogether.
Q.Was it noticeable to you; id it strike you that the defendant Funk mentioned the keeping secret of this, or was that nothing unusual?
A.No, it was not anything unusual. It merely became clear from the conversation that if the confiscated articles of the Currency Department and the Custums Department were to be accepted by us, then these matters would ma it urgent that they should be kept secret.
Q.But the way you are describing the affair, witness, seems to indicate that you, on one hand, considered the business to be perfectly legal, and you yourself are saying that it was perfectly legal; on the other hand, you were considering secrecy, which to you as an old banking expert was a matter of course, and, of course, the question arises, Why was the matter of keeping these things secret discussed at all?
APresumably the reason is that Mr. Funk was asked, in turn, to keep it very secret, and he passed on that wish.
QDid Mr. Funk tell you that he was asked to keep it secret?
ANo, I donot remember that,
QYou do not remember; I see. Did you not ask him why it should be kept secret, "absolutely secret", as you say? I do not know whether you want to keep that up, but you said "absolutely secret".
AYes, the decree of secrecy was to be applied here, and some such duty was to be imposed on the officials.
QBut you, as acting vice president, what did you say to that?
AI did not say anything because, if that had been arranged, then that wish would have to be complied with.
QBut you do not know whether it had been arranged? What do you know about that?
AI assume that it was arranged.
QYou consider it possible?
AYes.
QAnd so, to repeat this, these articles which did arrive you did not see at all?
ANo.
QVery probably you do not even know how much it was?
ANo, I do not know that either, and, as I said before, I never saw any accounts. It was not part of our business procedure, because not every single affair was put before a member of the Directorate.
QThe reason I am asking you, you see, is that the other day when this case was discussed, it was stated that whole carloads, whole truckloads of things were sent.
AWhole truckloads?
QYou are laughing even now. You will laugh a lot more when I tell you that 47 truck loads or railway ear loads of gold were discussed which were supposed to have arrived at your bank.
AWell, I never heard of this.
Q We will then leave this point itness, and come to the next point in your affidavit of 1 May.
I think you knew this SS Obergruppenfuehrer Phol, whom you mentioned a little earlier, in 1942, did you not?
AYes, but this occasion was the first opportunity for him to come to my office.
QThis is not meant to be an accusation. It is merely an ascertainment of fact. You knew him. Presumably, this was due to the first transaction regarding some credit which happened at some earlier time.
AYes, that may be so.
QDefendant Funk says, you see, that as far as he can remember the matter-and he did not attach any significance to it at the time -- as far as he can remember it, this is supposed to have happened along about 1940. That is to say, quite some time before the second transaction. Can that he true, approximately?
AI can neither deny nor confirm it. I do not know the date of that credit
QIn your affidavit you state, with reference to this credit, that the Reichsbank had opened a credit of 10,000,000 to 12,000,000 rm. for the SS, I believe to pay off some other credit which the SS had taken up with some other bank, and now you are saying that this credit had been taken up for the purpose of financing production of material in factories organized by theSS where workers from concentration camps were being employed.
Witness, I am not so much interested in the question of the granting of this credit as such, because that is part of your business asa bank and the figure of 10,000,000 to 12,000,000 rm, was not anything particularly unusual, but I am interested in this; How do you know that these monies were to be used for SS factories in which workers from concentration camps were working How did you know that?
AThe application for this credit came from the Economic Department of the SS. which has been mentioned earlier. This department was running a number of factories in Germany, and for that purpose they needed money. The Gold Discount Bank was prepared to give this credit, but only if the business procedure for credits were employed. In other words, the borrower would have to put a balance sheet before us, and at regular intervals he would have to report to us regarding production, his general financial state of affairs, and his plans for the future, in other words, everything that a debtor would have to inform his creditor about.
The head of the Gold Discount Bank was conducting the negotiations, and on that occasion, the representatives of the Economic Department who were submitting the balances, did, of course, ment on production, which --
QSlowly, please, witness.
A -- which was remarkable f om the point of view of balances because the wage account was comparatively low. She question would naturally arise, To what is this low figure for your wage account due?
The head, of the Gold Discount Bank during a board meeting reported about this.
QYou are always talking about the Gold Discount Bank. The Tribunal will no doubt be interested to know whether the Gold Discount Bank is identical with the Reichsbank and whether it was also under defendant Funk's jurisdiction?
AThe Gold Discount Bank is an institute founded in the beginning of the twenties. It was an auxiliary institute of the Reichsbank for certain different tasks: last but not least, promotion of exports and increase of production -- its capital structure.
QNo, we are not interested in that.
APractically all the shares were held by the Reichsbank and its management -- Gold Discount Bank had a board of directors headed by the president of the Reichsbank. It had a deputy president or chairman of the board of directors and there was he vice president of the Reichsbank and then there was a board of directors whore a number of members of the directorate of the Reichsbank were numbers but also the Secretary of State, Ministry of Economy and Minister of Finance.
THE PRESIDENT:It is not interesting to us to know what the exact directors of the Gold Discount Bank were. BY DR. SAUTER:
QWitness, I have tried to interrupt you earlier. I was going to tell you that what you have just told us isn't of any significance for this trial, The Tribunal is only interested in hearing whether the defendant Funk, as far as you can remember for contain, heard of those matters and did he know what the purpose of this credit was and did he know that in those factories people from concentration camps were employed; did he know of it and do youknow so for certain or don't you know at all?
AI might assume it but can't know. At any rate, it was known that the credit was to be used for those factories.
QWitness, I can't be quite satisfied with that answer because the SSsomething which you heard in the meantime -- had certain economic businesses where there weren't any concentration camp inmates employed; as far as I know, for instance, the china (?) factory at Allach. I don't think there were any concentration camp inmates working at that, and then the entire --
MR. DODD:I object to testimony by counsel. He is practically giving the answer to this witness before he asks the question. BY DR. SAUTER:
QDo you know anything about it? Do you know that the SS had business of an economic nature where there weren't concentration camp inmates?
AOf course. I didn't know every individual business run by the SS and I couldn't know whether prisoners were in one or in the other.
QDuring the meeting when this credit was discussed, was the defendant Funk present during it?
ANo, he wasn't there; no, it was the same procedure which we always used; records were prepared.
QDid defendant Funk talk to those officials who had noticed this unusual state of affairs regarding the wages (?) account: Did he talk to them at all?
ANo, because this wasn't handled by the head of the Gold Discount Bar
QAnd that wasn't the defendant Funk, was it?
ANo.
DR. SAUTER:In that case, Mr. President, I have no further questions to the witness.
MR. DODD:I have just a few questions to ask, your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DODD:
QWho have you talked to besides representatives of the prosecution since you have arrived here in Nurnberg? Did you look at any paper? Who have youtalked to besides representatives of the prosecution since you have arrived herein Nurnberg?
AOh, I see. I don't know everybody's name. There was a Mr. Kompner, Mr. Margolies -
QI am not asking you about the gentlemen of the prosecution. I am asking you who else you have talked to, if anybody, since you arrived here in Nurnberg. That doesn't require very much thought. Have you talked to anybody else since you arrived here or not?
A Only to the officials on the landing of our prison.
QNobody else?
ANobody else.
QNow, are you absolutely sure about that?
AAbsolutely, yes.
QDid you talk to Dr. Stuckart (?) over in the witness wing and about your testimony that you were going to give here this morning? Answer that question.
ADr. Stuckhart (?) is one of the fellow prisoners on the same landing of the prison.
QI didn't ask you that. I asked you if you didn't talk to him a day or two ago about your testimony in this case?
ANo.
QNow, I think it is awfully important to you that I remind you. You know that you are under oath here. I am going to ask you again: Didn't you talk to Dr. Stuckart (?) over in this witness wing about your testimony or about the facts concerning Funk in this case?
ANo. I talked about general matters of all types.
QYou didn't talk to four or five of those other people there either about your testimony or about the facts here?
ANo, absolutely no.
QAll right. You know a man by the name of Toms, T-O-M-S?
AT-O-M-S, that is an official from the Reichsbank who was working in the vaults of the Reichsbank in Berlin.
QYou know the man, you do know him?
AYes.
QNow, you talked to him about these deposits put in by the SS, didn't you, Mr. Puhl?
AMr. Toms, no.
QYou didn't talk to him?
ANo, I didn't see Toms at Nurnberg at all and in Frankfurt I saw him from a distance.
Q I am not referring to Nurnberg now. We will get away from that for a minute.
I mean during the time that these deposits were being made in the Reichsbank. Did you talk to Mr. Toms about the deposits?
AYes, as it says in the affidavit.
QWell, never mind the affidavit for a few minutes. I have a few questions I want to ask you. I am particularly interested in this matter of secrecy. What did you tell Toms about the requirement of secrecy with respect to those SS deposits? Did you tell Toms about the requirement of secrecy with respect to these SS deposits?
AI got to add that to start with, I talked with Mr. Vogflecti (?) because he was the person and then Toms come later. I told both these gentlemen that there was a wish that this matter was to be kept a secret.
QDid you say that it had to be kept a secret and they must not discuss it with anybody else; that it was highly secret, a special transaction and if anybody asked him about it, he was to say he was forbidden to speak about it? Did you tell that to Mr. Toms in the Reichsbank?
AIn that sense, I think, yes.
QWell, that is what I am asking you, Why did you tell Toms that he was not to speak about it; that it was absolutely forbidden; that it was highly secret, if it was just the ordinary confidence reposed in bank officials attached to a business relationship?
ABecause President Punk personally had stated that wish to me.
Q Well, now, I think perhaps there is some confusion in our minds.
You see, I clearly understood and I expect others as well are *---* may have in the courtroom this morning, that you were telling counsel for Funk that the secrecy attached to these transactions was not extraordinary but just the ordinary secrecy or confidence that banking people attached to their relationship with customers. Now, of course, that wasn't so, was it?
AThe matter, as I explained earlier, is this: These confiscated valuables reaching the bank were usually turned away by us and if an exception was being made in this connection, then special duty for secrecy existed, of course.
QI wish you would answer this question very directly. Wasn't there a special reason for special secrecy with respect to these deposits by the SS? You can answer that yes or no.
ANot recognizable to me.
QWhy were you telling Toms that was highly secret and he was to tell anybody who asked him about it, that he was forbidden to speak about it? You didn't ordinarily instruct your people to that effect, did you?
ABecause I in turn had the came instructions.
QThat may be so, but that was a special secrecy, wasn't it? That wasn't your ordinary and customary way of doing business?
AConfiscated articles which reachedous were usually turned away by us and if we made an exception in this connection and this became known, then there would have been an immediate example from others and that is what we wanted to avoid under any circumstances.
QYou didn't want to discuss this matter on the telephone with pohl of the SS, did you? You asked him to come to your office rather than talk about it on the telephone?
AYes.
QWhy was that, if it was just an ordinary business transaction?
ABecause you never knew in connection with the telephone how far that was listened into, which might have meant that that information might reach others.
QWell, you didn't talk to anybody much on the telephone; is that right?
You were a man that never used the telephone out of the Reichsbank?
Now, I think you realize fully well that there was a special reason in this case for notwanting to talk on the telephone and I think you should tell the Tribunal what it was.
A- Yes; yes, the reason, as I have said repeatedly, was that from the beginning there was a wish that secrecy should be observed and if special secrecy is asked for, then that wish was respected and it was treated according] or accordingly in connection with telephone calls.
QAnd you are still insisting that this transaction was not a special secret transaction that you told Dr. Kempner was "schweinerei". Do you know what that word means?
AYes.
QWhat does it mean? It means it smelled bad, doesn't it?
AThat we better not do it.
QNow, you called up Toms on more than one occasion to ask him how the deposits from the SS were coming in, didn't you?
ANo, I saw Toms only rarely -- often, I didn't see him for months because he hardly had any business to attend to in my office.
QI didn't ask you if you sawhim often. I ask you if you didn't call him on the telephone and ask him how the deposits were coming along?
ANo, I hadn't, any further interest in the conduct of this particular transaction and there would have had to be a report from the cashier in this connection.
QDid you tell him to get in touch with Brigadenfuehrer Frank (?) or gruppenfuehrer or Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff of the SS? Did you tell that to Toms?
AYes, I repeat something I said earlier, when Pohl was with me I told him that he would give the job of dealing with the Reichsbank to tyro people from his office and the two names just mentioned were the names of those officials.
QWhat was the name under which these deposits were known in the Reichsbank?
AThe name under which these deposits were known in the Reichsbank I only heard from the files when I was in Frankfurt.
QDon't you know the name Melmer, M-E-L-M-E-R?
AFrom my time in Frankfurt, yes.
QDidn't you on one occasion call Mr. Toms on the telephone and ask him how the Melmer deposits were coming along?
AI didn't quite understand you, I am afraid.
QI said, didn't you on one occasion at least call Mr. Toms on the telephone in the Reichsbank and ask him how the Melmer deposits were coming along?
ANo, I couldn't have put that question because I didn't know the word "Melmer".
QYou don't know that Melmer was the name of an SS man? You don't know that?
ANo, I didn't know that.
QI want you to look at an affidavit by Mr. Toms, executed the 8th day of May 1946. You have seen this before, by the way; haven't you seen it yesterday? Answer that question, will you please, Mr. Witness. You saw this affidavit yesterday, the one I just sent up to you? You saw that yesterday, didn't you?
AOh, yes, yes.
QYou will observe in paragraph five that Toms, who executed this affidavit, said that he went to see you and that you told him that the Reichsbank was going to back as custodian for the SS and the receipt and disposition of the deposits and that the SS would deliver the property; namely gold, silver and foreign currency, and he also explained at that time the SS intended to deliver numerous other kinds of property such as jewelry and "we must find a way to dispose of it"; and that he suggested to you, Mr. Puhl, that "we transmit the items to the Reichshauptkasse, as we made it in the case Wehrmacht booty, or that the items could be given by the Reichsfuehrer SS directly to the pawnshop for disposition so that the Reichsbank had no more to do with it than it did in the case of confiscated Jewish property. Puhl told me that it was out of the question and that it was necessary that we arrange a procedure for handling this unusual property in order to hold the whole business secret."