searched your houses, seized all your papers, and took you prisoner, did it not? The Reichsmarshal was led to his room and from that moment on never remained without personal guard; that we were put in single custody and separated from him and that we executed by the troops of the SS, who were stationed at the Berghof.
Q And this occurred at Berchtesgaden? the SS at the time of the surrender and were supposed to approve it by your own signature. Is that correct? his family and those surrounding, at the time of the capitulation in Berlin, should be shot.
The second thing you mentioned is different. We should have been -we were about to be forced to volunteer for the SS. One has to say that the SS leaders did not want us there at that time and we were not forced to execute that order. At that time, however, we were already separated from the Commander-in-Chief.
Q What was the state of your knowledge about the activities of the SS? What was the SS and what was its relation to the Wehrmacht at this time? What was its relation to the Air Force? Tell us about the SS. stood. Speaking of the SS, SD, Gestapo, Waffen SS, they were entirely different units. The Gestapo, as such, was a means of pressure which prevented a great deal of free development.
Q And the SS likewise, as a matter of fact?
A The Waffen SS was the military organization, the troops. I, personally, did not have any bad experiences with them, no difficulties, no friction with them.
Q But what about the SS proper? Brauchitsch, you know this situation about the SS, I am sure, and you impress me as wanting to tell us candidly whet you know about this situation, and I wish you would tell us a little, what the influence of the SS was on these situations. only able to give you information about the Air Force, but I am not in a position to say anything about general things about which I have no technical knowledge, just a subjective opinion.
Q Well, wasn't the SS the subject of a good deal of discussion among you officers, and wasn't everybody aware that the SS was an organization like the Gestapo that was repressive and cruel? of the air power of the enemy that these worries kept us busy, more than sufficiently. Germany and the Jews of occupied countries? pointed out here and as it went through the press.
Q Well, I don't want to interrogate you from what is in the press, but do you want the Tribunal to understand that you had no knowledge of a campaign against the Jews in Germany? I have now read in the press. I did not know at the time.
Q Your father was Field Marshal, was he not?
Q At what period was he Field Marshal?
Q He has never been deprived of his rank, is that a fact?
Hitler as to military programs? concerning political and military questions. States that he retired from active command in 1941?
Q And what did you understand to be the reason for his retirement? the political considerations did he see eye to eye with Hitler, and could not come to any accord, and since he could not make his own opinions prevail, he desired to manifest his dissent by resigning, and that specifically also referred to religious questions.
Q That is true, is it not?
You were also asked this:
"And from 1941 to the end of the war, do you know what he was doing?"
And you answered:
"Well, he had, through his second wife, a little house in a small town in Silesia, Bockenheim, and he occupied himself with studies of family history and also with forestry, economics, and hunting work, but did not take any share" -
A (Interposing) That was military history only, with economic question
Q Beg pardon. I didn't get that. in military questions.
" -- but did not take share in any sort of bloody political endeavors."
You said that, did you not?
Q This is your answer in full. You interrupted me. This is your answer to the interrogator:
"Well, he had, through his second wife, a little house in a small town in Silesia, Bockenheim, and he occupied himself with studies of family history and also with forestry" -- and, they have down -- "economics, and hunting works, but did not take any share in any sort of bloody political endeavors."
don't you?
A I have never said that he ever took part in bloody things. It must be an error. I have never seen that protocol any more. I have not signed it
Q I have not made myself clear. You said he did not take part in any bloody political endeavors. That is what this says you said. or any political endeavors.
Q You didn't use those terms in the examination?
A No, I cannot remember that I said that. I have not signed that protocol and I didn't see it any more after the interrogation. 1946 to Captain Horace Hahn, Interrogator? because that expression is foreign to me. I do not know in what connection I would have mentioned it.
Q Well, you don't know of any that he did partake in, do you?
A No. My father retired, yes.
Q Absolutely from this whole Nazi outfit. He cut his strings with them and retired to a little village rather than go on with the program he didn't agree with, didn't he? Isn't that a fact?
DR. PECKMANN (Counsel for the SS): I believe that I do not have any more formal right to question this witness after Justice Jackson has interrogated him, but I would be grateful if I would be permitted to since Justice Jackson questioned the witness also about the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness statement about the SS was that he knew nothing about it. I don't know what ground that gives for your cross examination.
DR. PECKMANN: He was asked whether, on Obersalzburg, he was guarded by the SS who also had orders to shoot him and to shoot Goering.
I would like to clarify whether that was SS or SD.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. PECKMANN:
Q I ask the witness, therefore: Do you knew whether these people whom you have just mentioned were members of the SS or SD. Do you know the difference, Witness?
A I knew the difference generally. I believe that the troops which had the mission of guarding us were SS, but that the Sicherheitsdienst had the special order.
DR. PECKMANN: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other counsel for the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
Dr. Stahmer, do you wish to re-examine?
DR. STAHMER: I have only two short questions. BY DR. STAHMER: Reichsmarshal and Himmler were? there existed between Himmler and Goering a relation which on the outside looked very careful, but one could not talk of the real relation between the two. last moment, still trusted the Reichsmarshal, and there was special confidence in the Reichsmarshal? Can you tell us about any particular incident say the exact date -- in a public air raid shelter. The Reichsmarshal was without any guards, and he spoke to the people and they greeted him with the old slogan "Hermann, halt die Ohren steif", Hermann, keep your chin up. of the 20-21 April. On the morning of the 21st, towards noon, the Reichsmarshal arrived at a town in Sudetengau, Bohemia, where a short stop-over was made, and where, after a short time, the market place was filled by people.
He was asked for his autograph, and we could not get him out of the crowd with his own car. Here also, he was greeted by the old shout, "Hermann."
DR. STAHMER: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. STAHMER: As next witness, I name State Secretary Paul Koerner.
PAUL KOERNER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Is your name Paul Koerner?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down if you wish. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q Witness, which official position did you have before the capitulation?
Q In this office were you one of the collaborators of the Reichsmarshal?
Q When did you first meet the Reichsmarshal?
Q When were you picked as collaborator?
Q In what function?
Q when were you taken into the Civil Service?
AApril 1933. Pardon; the previous date was '31.
THE PRESIDENT: The translator said the previous date was 1931; which date was 1931?
DR. STAHMER: In 1931 he first became Goering's private secretary. In 1933 he entered the Civil Service.
BY DR. STAHMER:
Q Which office did you hold? the Gestapo? the seizure of power, was developed from the Political Police Department 1-A. Basically, the Political Police Department remained in existence, only it was newly formed, and got the name of the State Police.
Q What was their mission?
Q Are you informed about the establishment of concentration camps?
Q What purposes did they serve?
Q What do you mean by "house"? these camps.
Q And what should be done with them there? should take place in order to be able to return them to the mission.
Q Do you know anything about the treatment which took place there?
Q Did you ever hear anything about so-called wild concentration camps? established.
Q By whom? fuehrer Heines; one in Stettin. Whether there were any others, I do not know.
Q In Stettin? Who was it in Stettin?
Q And what became of these camps?
A When the Reichsmarshal heard about it, he had them dissolved because they were established without his approval.
Q What was the Reichsmarshal's attitude to complaints?
A Oh, he always went after the complaints; he went to the sources of the complaints.
Q Do you knew of any case where he took special measures?
Q How was it? marshal wanted. He tried to get information about it and then had the man brought before him.
Q Who was Thaelmann? Communist member of the Reichstag.
Q And how did the Reichsmarshal speak to Thaelmann? him anything, why a complaint had been sent.
Q And then?
but it became clearer to him, after the Reichsmarshal spoke very plainly to him, that he could speak freely. Then he told the Reichsmarshal that he had not been treated correctly. The Reichsmarshal promised to do something about it immediately, and gave the respective directives; and he also suggested to Thaelmann that whenever such things occurred again he should report about them immediately. He also gave orders that whenever any complaints should come from Thaelmann, they should be sent directly to him. the competence of the Reichsmarshal?
A Until the spring of 1934; I believe it was March or April.
Q Under whose competence did they come then? Reichsfuehrer Himmler. 30th of July, 1934? where we were present at the wedding of Gauleiter Roehm. During the wedding ceremony Himmler reported to the Fuehrer. Later the Fuehrer confided in the Reichsmarshal and told him about the plans of Roehm.
Q Do you also know what he told him? the knowledge of Goering.
Q Do you know any details?
Q What directives did Goering receive? at once, and the Fuehrer went to Southern Germany to investigate these reports personally.
Q When was that wedding? was to see Hitler?
A No. The Reichsmarshal was in Berlin. We returned, the same evening to Berlin.
Q Yes, and on the day after the Roehm putsch, after the 30th? and Hitler?
A Yes. I remember that the Reichsmarshal drove to the Reich Chancellery to report several things to the Fuehrer, especially that the Reichsmarshal had been informed that on that occasion innocent people also could have been, or were the victims. Therefore, he wanted to ask the Fuehrer to stop the whole action immediately.
Q Was that done?
Q In what form, or in what manner? personally issued directives that no wild actions should take place any more, that the actions were finished, and if any guilty people were found they would be sent to courts, which had to decide whether any action should be taken against the men or not. Reichsmarshal had anything to do with the action of the 8th and 9th of November, 1938, against the Jews?
Q How do you know? and on the same evening we went to Berlin. If the Reichsmarshal had known anything, undoubtedly be would have told me, or these who were around him. He had no idea.
Q When did he find out about it? at Berlin.
Q Through whom?
Q And what was his attitude when he got this information? entire action as such.
Q And what did he do about it? this action be stopped immediately.
Q Which task did you have within the framework of the Four-Year Plan?
Q Which jobs did you have?
Q How did the Four-Year Plan come about? When was that, and how did it start? goes back to the nutritional crisis of 1935. In the fall of 1935 the Reichsmarshal received the order -
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, try not to go quite so fast. It is very difficult to get the translation.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
A (Continuing) In the fall of 1935, the Reichsmarshal received the order from the Fuehrer to assure nutrition for the German people since, because of the bad harvest of 1934 and 1935, that was in danger. We were short about two million tons of bread grain and several hundred thousand tons of fat, which had to be procured some way or another. Fuehrer to ask him for suggestions as to how the entire German economy could be reorganized. These proposals were worked out at the first of the year 1936, and during the summer were presented to the Fuehrer. Plan, which he proclaimed on the occasion of Party Day in 1936. On the 18th of October, 1936, the Fuehrer issued a decree which appointed the Reichsmarshal Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan.
Q What were the purposes connected with the Four-Year Plan?
AAs I said before, to reform and reorganize the German economy. The main task was to increase German export as much as possible, and to supplement exports so as to increase the production of agriculture.
Q Was the Four-Year Plan a means of rearmament? the German Wehrmacht, the Army.
Q Did the Four-Year Plan have anything to do with manpower?
A Yes. Within the Four-Year Plan a Plenipotentiary for Manpower was appointed. He was the former President of the Reichsamt, President Syrup.
Q When was he appointed?
Q What were his tasks in particular? existed in the labor market could be ended.
Q How long did Syrup remain in office?
Q Who was his successor?
Q who appointed Sauckel?
Q And what was his job? that he had the job to regulate manpower problems. He was formally under the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan, but he received his directives immediately from the Fuehrer.
Q In what manner did you work for that? was concerned, since Sauckel received his directives from the Fuehrer and executed them independently.
Q Didn't you have any more negotiations with Sauckel? received his directives immediately from the Fuehrer.
Q Who disposed of the manpower? Who distributed it?
Q What was the relationship between the Reichsmarshal and Himmler?
A It was not a very good one. Frequently there were tensions. There was no confidence between the two.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defendants counsel wish to ask any questions?
(No response)
Do the prosecution wish to ask any questions? BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Goering and Thaelmann.
Q Will you tell us when that occurred?
Q In the summer of 1933? Was that before or after the Reichstag fire? court, was he not?
Q Do you remember it at all? Do you remember that he was accused?
A I cannot remember that very well, whether he was accused. That may be.
Q Do you know where he died?
A No, I don't know. and remained there until he died in 1944? Did you know that?
Q And where was he when this air attack overtook him?
A Where Thaelmann was? I did not quite understand the question.
Q Where was he when he was a victim of an air attack? Buchenwald.
Q And how long had he been there?
A That I don't known I have no knowledge of that.
Q Were you present at the conversation between Thaelmann and Goering?
Q What did he complain about then in the concentration camp?
Q That was the only complaint he made?
A Yes, so far as I can remember. The Reichsmarshal asked him whether he had good food, and they were discussing everything, treatment and food.
Q And Thaelmann foundno fault with the concentration camps except treatment during interrogation.
country? Communists, among others, were they not?
Q And Jews?
Q Were Jews also regarded as enemies of the state?
A Generally not; only after they had been recognized as such.
Q Recognized as such -- what, Jews? treated as an enemy of the State.
Q What was the test as to whether he was an enemy of the State? hostile to the State.
Q Such as what? What actions?
A That I cannot say in detail now. I was not chief of the Gestapo, and I do not knew the details. was chief of the Gestapo? State Ministry.
Q And didn't you have to do with concentration camps under the Secret Police as such?
Q Who handled that for Goering? used SS men?
Q You were a member of the SS, were you not?
Q What was your office in the SS?
A I never held any office in the SS. I was just a member of the SS.
Q Were you not Obergruppenfuehrer?
Q Now, as to these "wild" concentration camps, you were asked who set those wild concentration camps us, and I don't think you answered. Will you tell us about who set up the wild concentration camps?
A I remember two comps. In the case of one, I know it was one Gruppenfuehrer Heines, in Breslau.
Q Gruppenfuehrer of what?
Q Who was the other?
A That I don't know precisely. I believe it was Karpfenstein, but I cannot be sure of that
Q Who was he?
Q And the Gauleiter was a Party official? only enemies of the State but enemies of the Party, were they not? was to act as chief of the State Secret Police?
Q Was that not the law, whatever was done about it? Did you not knew that that was the law under which the Secret State Police was set up, Section 1, Paragraph 2?
A I cannot remember what law any more. I do not know the details any more.
Q Do you know the law of November 30, 1933 -- you don't know the law under which you were operating?
A I do not remember that law now. I would have to see it again.
had to be closed out? the approval of the Prussian Prime Minister and therefore he prohibited them immediately.
Q That is the only reason, that they were set up without his authority?
Q And he had them stopped immediately? under his control and the Fuehrer backed him up in it, is that right? ment of people in concentration camps, all during the time you were with Goering, did there not?
A Those -- yes, there were frequent complaints; that is true.
Q What did they complain of? deal with. brought to concentration camps and they asked for their release; or made complaints because they thought they had reasons that these people had been brought to the concentration camp unjustifiably. offense? camps?
A The Reichsmarshal had ordered that all complaints had to be con-
sidered and investigated, and it was immediately done. find that they were guilty? concentration camp and he was innocent, he was released immediately. innocent and was to be released from the concentration camp?
Q What at the Secret State Police? Who was the man you communicated with?
A Whoever was competent in these matters. In detail, I do not know. The chief, as far as I remember, was first Heydrich and then Kaltenbrunner and then Mueller.
Q Goering was on good terms with all of those, was he not?
Q Well-acquainted with all of those men? concentration camps, are you talking about just one or two cases or did he obtain the release of a good many people?
A Throughout the years, of course; there were several cases -- a number of cases.
Q What do you mean by "several"?
A Well, I cannot tell the number now. At any rate, there was quite a number of cases where people had been released.
Q Did you find any where the people were guilty when you investigated?
Q Who decided that? Police.
Q Well, then, what did you do in requesting their release? Did you advise the Secret Police that you disagreed with their conclusion that the man was guilty, or did Goering simply order the man released or request his release?
A No, they were told what reason there was that the man should be re-
leased. of a person from a concentration camp whore it was not granted?
A I cannot say that now. I have to think it over -- think about it.
Q You can't recall any today, can you, in which Goering's word requesting a release was not honored? Roehm revolt?
Q How many people were killed as a result of it?
A I cannot say that from memory any more. As far as I know, these figures were published at the time.
Q Well, would it be a couple of hundred people that were killed for it?
Q Well, it was a very large number of people, wasn't it?
A No, I am sure it was not a very large number. The number was published at that time. One could investigate that and find out. people who had been a party to the Roehm revolt? Hitler at some time and wanted this campaign against people who were in the Roehm revolt stopped. And I want to know why he wanted it stopped? absolutely guilty should be caught and punished It was clear that during that action one or the other would like to take personal revenge and do away with his personal enemy, and in order to stop that, this action should be stopped immediately and only regular courts pass upon the matter.
Q Who was in charge of the selection of the people who were shot or otherwise killed as a result of the Roehm revolt?
when he complained? function to regulate the confusion in the labor market?
Q Now, you represented the Reichsmarshal in many meetings, did you not? the armament industry and other industries that needed labor?
Q You never had anything to do with that? of war for Arbeitseinsatz.
Q You attended many meetings when that was discussed, did you not?
Q Did you report to the Reichsmarshal what happened at those meetings? made and presented to the Reichsmarshal.
Q You were a member of the Central Planning Board, were you not?
Q And you were representing on that Board the Reichsmarshal?
A No. I did not represent the Reichsmarshal. It was a group of three men -- Speer, the Field Marshal, and myself. Central Planning was created in the spring of 1942.
Q Who appointed you?
Q Who appointed you?
Q And you reported to hi, did you not, what occurred from time to time?