Q And what was his attitude when he got this information? entire action as such.
Q And what did he do about it? this action be stopped immediately.
Q Which task did you have within the framework of the Four-Year Plan?
Q Which jobs did you have?
Q How did the Four-Year Plan come about? When was that, and how did it start? goes back to the nutritional crisis of 1935. In the fall of 1935 the Reichsmarshal received the order -
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, try not to go quite so fast. It is very difficult to get the translation.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
A (Continuing) In the fall of 1935, the Reichsmarshal received the order from the Fuehrer to assure nutrition for the German people since, because of the bad harvest of 1934 and 1935, that was in danger. We were short about two million tons of bread grain and several hundred thousand tons of fat, which had to be procured some way or another. Fuehrer to ask him for suggestions as to how the entire German economy could be reorganized. These proposals were worked out at the first of the year 1936, and during the summer were presented to the Fuehrer. Plan, which he proclaimed on the occasion of Party Day in 1936. On the 18th of October, 1936, the Fuehrer issued a decree which appointed the Reichsmarshal Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan.
Q What were the purposes connected with the Four-Year Plan?
AAs I said before, to reform and reorganize the German economy. The main task was to increase German export as much as possible, and to supplement exports so as to increase the production of agriculture.
Q Was the Four-Year Plan a means of rearmament? the German Wehrmacht, the Army.
Q Did the Four-Year Plan have anything to do with manpower?
A Yes. Within the Four-Year Plan a Plenipotentiary for Manpower was appointed. He was the former President of the Reichsamt, President Syrup.
Q When was he appointed?
Q What were his tasks in particular? existed in the labor market could be ended.
Q How long did Syrup remain in office?
Q Who was his successor?
Q who appointed Sauckel?
Q And what was his job? that he had the job to regulate manpower problems. He was formally under the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan, but he received his directives immediately from the Fuehrer.
Q In what manner did you work for that? was concerned, since Sauckel received his directives from the Fuehrer and executed them independently.
Q Didn't you have any more negotiations with Sauckel? received his directives immediately from the Fuehrer.
Q Who disposed of the manpower? Who distributed it?
Q What was the relationship between the Reichsmarshal and Himmler?
A It was not a very good one. Frequently there were tensions. There was no confidence between the two.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defendants counsel wish to ask any questions?
(No response)
Do the prosecution wish to ask any questions? BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Goering and Thaelmann.
Q Will you tell us when that occurred?
Q In the summer of 1933? Was that before or after the Reichstag fire? court, was he not?
Q Do you remember it at all? Do you remember that he was accused?
A I cannot remember that very well, whether he was accused. That may be.
Q Do you know where he died?
A No, I don't know. and remained there until he died in 1944? Did you know that?
Q And where was he when this air attack overtook him?
A Where Thaelmann was? I did not quite understand the question.
Q Where was he when he was a victim of an air attack? Buchenwald.
Q And how long had he been there?
A That I don't known I have no knowledge of that.
Q Were you present at the conversation between Thaelmann and Goering?
Q What did he complain about then in the concentration camp?
Q That was the only complaint he made?
A Yes, so far as I can remember. The Reichsmarshal asked him whether he had good food, and they were discussing everything, treatment and food.
Q And Thaelmann foundno fault with the concentration camps except treatment during interrogation.
country? Communists, among others, were they not?
Q And Jews?
Q Were Jews also regarded as enemies of the state?
A Generally not; only after they had been recognized as such.
Q Recognized as such -- what, Jews? treated as an enemy of the State.
Q What was the test as to whether he was an enemy of the State? hostile to the State.
Q Such as what? What actions?
A That I cannot say in detail now. I was not chief of the Gestapo, and I do not knew the details. was chief of the Gestapo? State Ministry.
Q And didn't you have to do with concentration camps under the Secret Police as such?
Q Who handled that for Goering? used SS men?
Q You were a member of the SS, were you not?
Q What was your office in the SS?
A I never held any office in the SS. I was just a member of the SS.
Q Were you not Obergruppenfuehrer?
Q Now, as to these "wild" concentration camps, you were asked who set those wild concentration camps us, and I don't think you answered. Will you tell us about who set up the wild concentration camps?
A I remember two comps. In the case of one, I know it was one Gruppenfuehrer Heines, in Breslau.
Q Gruppenfuehrer of what?
Q Who was the other?
A That I don't know precisely. I believe it was Karpfenstein, but I cannot be sure of that
Q Who was he?
Q And the Gauleiter was a Party official? only enemies of the State but enemies of the Party, were they not? was to act as chief of the State Secret Police?
Q Was that not the law, whatever was done about it? Did you not knew that that was the law under which the Secret State Police was set up, Section 1, Paragraph 2?
A I cannot remember what law any more. I do not know the details any more.
Q Do you know the law of November 30, 1933 -- you don't know the law under which you were operating?
A I do not remember that law now. I would have to see it again.
had to be closed out? the approval of the Prussian Prime Minister and therefore he prohibited them immediately.
Q That is the only reason, that they were set up without his authority?
Q And he had them stopped immediately? under his control and the Fuehrer backed him up in it, is that right? ment of people in concentration camps, all during the time you were with Goering, did there not?
A Those -- yes, there were frequent complaints; that is true.
Q What did they complain of? deal with. brought to concentration camps and they asked for their release; or made complaints because they thought they had reasons that these people had been brought to the concentration camp unjustifiably. offense? camps?
A The Reichsmarshal had ordered that all complaints had to be con-
sidered and investigated, and it was immediately done. find that they were guilty? concentration camp and he was innocent, he was released immediately. innocent and was to be released from the concentration camp?
Q What at the Secret State Police? Who was the man you communicated with?
A Whoever was competent in these matters. In detail, I do not know. The chief, as far as I remember, was first Heydrich and then Kaltenbrunner and then Mueller.
Q Goering was on good terms with all of those, was he not?
Q Well-acquainted with all of those men? concentration camps, are you talking about just one or two cases or did he obtain the release of a good many people?
A Throughout the years, of course; there were several cases -- a number of cases.
Q What do you mean by "several"?
A Well, I cannot tell the number now. At any rate, there was quite a number of cases where people had been released.
Q Did you find any where the people were guilty when you investigated?
Q Who decided that? Police.
Q Well, then, what did you do in requesting their release? Did you advise the Secret Police that you disagreed with their conclusion that the man was guilty, or did Goering simply order the man released or request his release?
A No, they were told what reason there was that the man should be re-
leased. of a person from a concentration camp whore it was not granted?
A I cannot say that now. I have to think it over -- think about it.
Q You can't recall any today, can you, in which Goering's word requesting a release was not honored? Roehm revolt?
Q How many people were killed as a result of it?
A I cannot say that from memory any more. As far as I know, these figures were published at the time.
Q Well, would it be a couple of hundred people that were killed for it?
Q Well, it was a very large number of people, wasn't it?
A No, I am sure it was not a very large number. The number was published at that time. One could investigate that and find out. people who had been a party to the Roehm revolt? Hitler at some time and wanted this campaign against people who were in the Roehm revolt stopped. And I want to know why he wanted it stopped? absolutely guilty should be caught and punished It was clear that during that action one or the other would like to take personal revenge and do away with his personal enemy, and in order to stop that, this action should be stopped immediately and only regular courts pass upon the matter.
Q Who was in charge of the selection of the people who were shot or otherwise killed as a result of the Roehm revolt?
when he complained? function to regulate the confusion in the labor market?
Q Now, you represented the Reichsmarshal in many meetings, did you not? the armament industry and other industries that needed labor?
Q You never had anything to do with that? of war for Arbeitseinsatz.
Q You attended many meetings when that was discussed, did you not?
Q Did you report to the Reichsmarshal what happened at those meetings? made and presented to the Reichsmarshal.
Q You were a member of the Central Planning Board, were you not?
Q And you were representing on that Board the Reichsmarshal?
A No. I did not represent the Reichsmarshal. It was a group of three men -- Speer, the Field Marshal, and myself. Central Planning was created in the spring of 1942.
Q Who appointed you?
Q Who appointed you?
Q And you reported to hi, did you not, what occurred from time to time?
distribute raw materials. We met every three months in order to establish the contingents for the forthcoming quarter year. The Four Year Plan, together with the Ministry of Economy, took care of that, and later the Central Planning Board. met every three months?
A Yes, about. Only in very rare cases it was called again, especially if there were urgent problems to be solved. I remember one case where agriculture did not get enough nitrogen and therewas danger that if the quota of nitrogen was too small, agricultural production would suffer. We then asked for a discussion, which took place in the Central Planning Board. Board at a meeting at which you were present that out of all the labor that came to Germany--only 200,000 came voluntarily--out of the millions who came only 200.000 came voluntarily? questions? taken into consideration, and the institutions which got the raw materials demanded also the workers which they needed, and the figures were given to us and were forwarded to the Plenipotentiary for the Arbeitseinsatz Front.
Q What about prisoners of war? the Central Plan ning Board only got general figures of workers. For instance, a branch of an industry was short so-and-so many thousand workers, and that was put with the demands for raw materials.
Q What about concentration camp labor?
A The distribution of labor was done by thelabor offices. Central Planning had nothing to do with that. 36,000 concentration camp prisoners were now being used and wanting an increase to 90,000?
aircraft guns? did you know that the number of concentration camps increased very greatly in Germany?
A That I do not know. What happened after they were turned over to Himmler is beyond my knowledge. It may be that a large number of concentration camps was established then.
Q How do you come to know about Goering's relations with Himmler? What he told you?
A Because I could observe that continuously. Goering once has spoken about it, and I could observe that relations were in no way good ones. Austrian State Police after the Anschluss?
Q Do you know who obtained that appointment for Kaltenbrunner? of the anti-Jewish riots in Germany?
Q Was Goebbels there also?
Q Go ahead; do you want to say something else? there then.
Q Why could he not be there? uprisings?
A Yes, that I found out later--that Goebbels was in Munich. All National Socialist leaders were in Munich because 9 November was a day when everybody met.
Q And Goebbels spoke in Munich, did he not? On the Jewish question that night?
A That I do not know. I do not know that speech.
leaders, was he not? Party met in Munich. That was a general meeting every year.
Q And Goering attended regularly?
Q And you did?
Q Now, Hess attended? participate, always participated on this day. Nobody ever was missing except if he was ill or had any special duties to perform.
Q What of the defendants in the dock attended those meetings? Ribbentrop, of course?
Q Keitel?
A I assume so. I do not know. I have never seen Kaltenbrunner because Kaltenbrunner get into the public service only during the last years, and during the last years, these meetings did not take place quite in the same fashion as before.
Q Rosenberg, of course, was there?
Q And Frick?
A Surely, certainly Frank and Frick. Not during the last years, I don't think so. Before that he certainly participated.
Q Which was that, during the last years? but I do not know for sure. were, was he not?
Q He was very active, was he not?
Q He was very active in the anti-Jewish matters, was he not?
Q And did you see Funk at those meetings? night of the Jewish uprising? always a fixed program on that day, and I do not know anything about that, and I do not think the Reichsmarshal knew anything about that. that something had happened during the night?
A I can not say that anymore because the adjutant changed. I only knew that an adjutant came and made the report.
Q What did he say that happened?
had taken place and that these excesses were continuing; that windows were broken; merchandise thrown into the streets; and so on, and Goering was infuriated.
Q What was he infuriated about?
Q You mean that he was taking the part of the Jews?
Q You mean that he was taking the part of the Jews?
Q You just tell us what it was; you go as far as you want; tell us what his attitude was.
Q Such as fining them a billion Reichsmarks right after the fire; right after these outrages? You know that he did that, don't you?
A Yes. That had been demanded by the Fuehrer.
Q You know that the Fuehrer is dead, don't you? Do you know that for a fact? that the Fuehrer is dead? Reichsmark fine? Who ordered the confiscation of the insurance. few days after this assault?
A That I don't know. I don't know the details any more.
Q Don't you remember that that was Goering's order?
A I do not recall it. I do not recall it now.
Q Why did Goering go to Hitler to get this stopped? Why did he not go to the head of the police, which is supposed to prevent crime?
A Of course he went to the highest chief so that an authorative order could be given that the excesses should stop immediately.
Q Did he have any idea who had started them? these excesses.
Q Did he know that the Gestapo and SS also participated?
A I don't know. As much as I know the SS did not participate.
Q Did the Gestapo?
A No; I don't know anything about that. riots,; is that the fact? incited by members of the government against the Jews? on the 4th of October of last year by Dr. Kempner of our staff, were you not? would not give any testimony against your former superior, Reichsmarshal Goering, and that you regarded Goering as the last big man of the rennaissance; the last great example of a man from the rennaissance period; that he had given you the biggest job of your life and it would be unfaithful and unloyal to give any testimony against him; is that what you said?
A Yes, yes; that is just about what I said.
Q And that is still your answer?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other members of the prosecution wish to examine this witness? BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
Q Perhaps you can remember, Mr. Witness, about the conference of political leaders in the occupied countries and territories which took place on the 6th of August, 1942, under the presidency of defendant Goering.
6th of August, that you directed to all the ministers the minutes of this meeting, in which in the appendix to the minutes it was mentioned how much food stuffs and other raw materials should be furnished to Germany? serves asproof of evidence of this meeting.
Q You remember that you sent out this document, don't you? were settled as to how much should be sent to Germany from France, 1,200,000 tons of food stuffs; from Belgium; from the Netherlands; from Norway; from Russia, 3,000 000 tons of grain had to be sent to Germany; and so forth. Don't you consider that such shipments are really pillaging of the occupied countries? help with feed, and in all the occupied territories quotas were established which they could fill, that is to say, if they were not in a position to fill these quotas they could demand changes.
Q You were saying something about pillaging, I think?
A No, I have not said pillaging. It was understood that the territories had to help also with respect to food.
Q That the occupied countries had to participate? them?
Q That is quite evident. Here, I want to ask you another ques-
tion in connection with this. You don't recognize that this was pillaging, but don't you recall that Goering himself -you recall new, said in his address that he is going to pillage aggressively the occupied territories; you don't remember his expression about pillaging aggressively?
Q No, you don't remember. Perhaps you can recall that at the same meeting, addressing those leaders of the occupied countries, that he told them that, "You are sent there not to work for thewelfare of the people you are in charge of, but you are sent there in order to pump out from thatcountry everything that is possible." Do you remember that statement by the Defendant Goering?
Q You cannot remember?
Q And you don't recall any lengthy correspondence between Goering and Rosenberg in which Rosenberg insisted on the fact that all functions relative to the economic exploitation of the occupied territories of the Soviet Union should be taken away from the economic military organs and should be handed over to the ministry headed by Rosenberg?
Q You don't know. And in connection with this you don't remember that this correspondence finally didn't settle the question; still didn't settle the question?
A I don't know about that correspondence; at least I have not seen it.
Q You don't know anything, do you? In 1944 don't you recall that -
DR. STAHMER: I would like to point out one thing: The interrogation is incomplete and hard to understand; we do not understand the questions in part ourselves.
GENERAL RUDENKO: Evidently I think that it is not up to me; it is not my fault if the witness does not get all my questions.
BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
Don't you recall that in 1944, after the Red Army had driven the German troops from the Ukraine, Goering wrote to Rosenberg in settling the question relative to the economic exploitation of the Ukraine, stating it should be postponed until a more opportune time, and Goering mentioned the second seizure of the Ukraine and other Soviet territories. Is that what he had in mind?
A That is supposed to nave happened in 1934?
GENERAL RUDENKO: Evidently, Mr. President, you consider it necessary to adjourn now. I have a few more questions, but I consider it would be convenient to resume after the adjournment.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours).
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will adjourn at 4:30 today. BY GENERAL RUDENKO: from the secretary in charge of the foreign affairs dealing with occupied countries, which is Document USSR 74. I want you to recollect whether you have ever seen this document and whether you have ever received the letter contained in that document.
As you see, this document begins with the words:
"Honorable State Secretary, Dear Party Comrade." measures.
A I am taking notice of this document. I am taking it for granted that I have received this document.
Q Yes, you have received this; it is quite obvious. It is quite clear that the letter dealt with the question of having a special meeting under your chairmanship. Thus, is my conclusion correct that you were a very close assistant of defendant Goering on the question of the application of the Nazi economic measures and economic leadership? Year Plan was at the head of both the civilian and the military organs which dealt with the economic exploitation of those occupied territories which Germany had and that in these economic measures you were his closest assistant. Do you affirm or deny this? The problem of collaboration which arose of the economic activity of the occupied countries was met, and we never had this conference.