Q. That, of course, is another question. But you were not in the Reichstag any longer?
A. No; and I was not a member of the cabinet, either.
Q. Dr. Funk, repeatedly we have seen and heard about an affidavit by the American consul-general, Messersmith, dated the 28th of August, 1945, 1760-PS. He says in the passage which concerns you, Funk was the editor of one of the leading financial papers of Berlin before it was taken over by the Nazis, and had very little open sympathy for them -- that is, the Nazis-while they were in power. became one of the most influential and effective tools of the party, because of his capabilities along certain lines. about you here. from the book which I have already mentioned, a book by Dr. Oestreich, which has the title "Walter Funk, A life for Economy". That is 3505-PS, and has already been used and submitted in these proceedings.
Party were just of a few months' duration, these missions were rather significant and could be considered as such.
What can you tell us about these two quotations? What was your attitude? siasm; that I have already stated. But I never listened to propaganda organizations, as Mr. Messersmith says, and I really cannot remember knowing Mr. Messersmith at all. I do not recall having talked with him about Austira or the Anschluss ; that I do not recall. I considered the unification of Germany and Austria, but I do not recall that I discussed that matter with Mr. Messersmith.
As far as the book of Dr. Paul Oestreich is concerned, I am sorry that the prosecution considers this book as a source of information. Mistakes were disclosed which could have been avoided, and which I would not have to refute here and now.
Q What was he? cal editor of a German financial paper in Berlin. and for that reason he really painted my picture in the Party in rather glowing terms, and he overestimated a little bit. I believe that he really wanted to do me a favor that way. However, in any event, things as they are pictured in the book are not true to form.
Q Mr. Witness, in a document submitted by the prosecution, 3563-PS, it says that you, Dr. Funk, were called an economic political counsellor of Hitler's In other spots it says that you were the Wirtschaftsbeauftragter-Economic Plenipotentiary -- of Hitler's. Was this a Party office, or just what was meant by this term? What functions did you have? Can you explain it?
A This was neither a Party office nor was it a Party title. The press cal led me that many times, on the basis of my activity in the year 1932, an activity which developed then, and this passed, over from the press into litterature. However it was not an office and it was not a title. It seems to me nonsensical that this Activity could have been significant, then I certainly would have kept on with these offices, and retained then when the Party obtained power.
The Reich Minister of Food was a Reichsleiter; State Secretary Reinhardt, in the Finance Ministry was the head of the financial center in the Reichsleitun But a Reichsleiter fuer die Wirtschaft - Reich Leader for Economy -- there was never such thing. When the Party came to power, I left the Reichstag and all Party organizations.
Q Dr. Funk, in the course of this proceeding, perhaps once or twice, a Reichswirtschaftsprat der Partei, a Reich Economic Council of the Party -- and I stress "of the Party" -- has been mentioned. What do you know about your membership in this group, and about the instructions and the sphere of activity and influence of that Party instrument? Neither Hess, Rosenberg, nor Frank could recall that Dr. Gottfried Feder had a circle of people when he called in for consultation, and rather pompous name "Reichswirtschaftsprat der Partei", was given to this group. After the takings over of power, it no longer existed. surprised that I was supposed to have been the Deputy Chairman of this group. However, this group never had any significance. the Party actually got power.
of the Party, until the taking over of power?
A Yes. Then, Dr. Wagner and Keppler overshadowed this man. Keppler also had the title of economic counsellor to the Fuehrer. That is, he had this title in public.
Q Dr. Funk, these personalities which you just mentioned were) in you: opinion, if I understood you correctly, those men who might be called the economic advisers of Hitler?
A No, that is wrong. Hitler did not consult anyone, he did not ask for advice, and least of all in the matter of economics. These were the men who dealt with economic-political problems in the leadership of the Party; that is, before my time and after my time.
Q Also in a journalistic way, like Dr. Feder?
A Yes; they wrote quite a bit
Q Dr. Funk, those were your real or alleged Party offices. Now I turn to your State offices. Chief of the Reich Government. And in March of 1933, when the Propaganda Ministry was created, which was a State Ministry, you became Secretary in this Propaganda Ministry under the Minister of Propaganda, Goebbels. Can you give us the antecedents of this step?
A May I just briefly talk about these matters? It would be much easier if you just asked me one question at a time. why you were called into the Propaganda Ministry, why, you were made Press Chief of the Reich Government even though you, on the whole, had concerned yourself with economic problems and questions. first of all, did not know at any time that before the year 1933 I had been active in the Party, and that, secondly, the instruction to me to become Press Chief of the Reich Government was a complete surprise. no one among the old Party members who knew the press very well, and he was, therefore, asking me to take over the position of Press Chief.
In connection with this office, there was a regular discussion with the Reich President. The Reich President knew me and, as I may mention again later on, he liked me. I was often a guest in his home, with his family.
Q That is, Hindenburg? of the Reich Government. The Press Chief of the Reich Government was a ministerial director in the Reich Chancellory, and I did not like it very well that I should suddenly become an official, for I really did not want anything like that at all, ever. However, there was a general enthusiasm in those days, and in order to follow the call of the Fuehrer, I accepted. I had regular press interviews with him, in the presence of Lammers. This lasted for only a year and a half, up until the death of the Reich President; then these conferences stopped, and the Fuehrer gave his instructions to the press through the Press Chief of the Party, Dr. Dietrich, who later became a state secretary in the Propaganda Ministry. organize this ministry so that Goebbels would not have to be bothered with administration, organization, and financial problems. Then the Press Department of the Reich Government, which I had headed up until now, was established in the Propaganda Ministry and incorporated into it as a special department, immediately subordinate to Goebbels, and we received a special head. and a half as Press Chief of the Reich Government, my activity for information and instruction of the press ceased. From that time on Goebbels concerned himself with this matter.
There was a sharp separation of political and administrative problems in the Ministry. So far as propaganda was concerned, he brought in his old collaborators from the propaganda leadership of the Party. I was not taken into this sector; I was not used forpolitical propaganda. Goebbels took care of those matters through the Party, or through the Party instrument, of which I was not a member. Gesellschaft, had to take care of the financial end. It was a matter of a hundred million. participated in large public announcements of the State or of the Party. Naturally, I realized fully the significance of propaganda for state leadership, and I agreed with this policy. I was amazed at the way in which Goebbels carried on the propaganda. However, so far as active propaganda was concerned, I had no part in it. Propaganda Ministry, which was a state ministry, as an administrative and organizational man; but the propaganda itself was directed by Dr. Goebbels, the minister, and was formulated by those people whom he took from the propaganda set-up of the Party into the ministry. Is that correct?
A Yes. Goebbels demanded propaganda. He wanted to dominate this whole field, and he made his demands known. I could not compare with him. extent, by the fact that many missions of the State Secretary and other ministries were taken care of by Goebbels or by his own expert, the later Gauleiter Hancke.
Q Hancke?
A Yes. I believe, during my entire activity in the Propaganda Ministry, I did not sign even three times as a deputy of Goebbels. One of these signatures has been brought in and proved by the prosecution, and that is my signature, under an order carrying through a directive that had come from Berlin.
Gesetz?
A The Reichskulturkammer? These laws were decided upon by the Reich Cabinet. I was not a member of the Reichs Cabinet, but as the State Secretary of the Propaganda Ministry, I had the formal responsibility, and naturally I was for propaganda, asanyone and everyone else was who was in a leading position. The entire cultural life of the nation was permeated with this propaganda, and the overtowering importance of this propaganda in the nation and state is well known.
Q Dr. Funk, the Prosecution has held you responsible for laws which during your term as Press Chief of the Reichsregierung were given out. I am especially pointing to the laws which were submitted under Documents 2962 and 2963. These are laws which you well knew concerned the elimination of civil rights in Germany, the elimination of the parliamentary form of government, and I am asking you to tell us how you were connected with these laws and if you as Press Chief of the Reich Government had any influence on the contents and promulgation f these laws.
A No. This question was answered by the Reichsmarshal and by Dr. Lammers. Both of them said No, and my only task waste transmit the orders from the Fuehrer to the Press.
Q Were you present at the sessions of the Reich Cabinet?
Q And you knewabout the discussions and decisions? please tell me if I am correct--was solely after the sessions of the Reich Cabinet to tell the press about the decisions that had been made? the laws nor any influence on the contents of the laws, nor influence on the voting?
A Yes, that is right. I had neither a seat nor a vote in the Cabinet.
and I am emphasizing the Reich Government and not the Party? press from the Fuehrer, and that was for a period of a month and a half. Then Dr. Goebbels took over this job. President Hindenburg ended with his death in August 1943 were with the then Reich Chancellor Hitler?
A Yes, that is correct. Reich President Hindenburg had died in the meantime. was the Party official, Dr. Dietrich?
A Yes, Dr. Dietrich was one of the members of the close circle about the Fuehrer, and through him the Fuehrer gave his instructions to the Press.
Q Dr. Funk, the book which we have already dealt with, the book by Dr. Oestrich--3505-PS, US Exhibit 643--contains the following quotation about your press policy, and I quote:
"Funk is one of the journalists who acted in Berlin and beyond, and he may be thanked for the way in which he concerned himself with your wishes, especially in the period of tansition. Funk is responsible for the much quoted word that the press should not be a hand organ, with which he spoke against uniformity and if we were to use the German word, against the unity of the press, and to bring about an individual aspect, but he also protected the press where efforts of the various offices tried to further their own position."
A Yes, that is right, and that was my opinion. So far as it was within my power, I tried to protect the press from uniformity and arbitrary treatment, especially on the part of the offices. I tried to protect it against that. leadership of the Propaganda Ministry was concerned--and I stress the
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I am turning now to a new complex of questions. Do you wish to have the recess now, your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: I think we will go straight on. We are going to adjourn at 12 o'clock. anti-Semitism. I do so because you are held more or less responsible for these perpetrations against the Jews. Will you tell us about your principal attitude?
A I was never anti-Semitic in the sense of a race theory. I at first considered the anti-Semitic demands of the Party program as matters of propaganda. At that time the Jews in various important fields of German life had a somewhat dominant position, and there were many very wise Jews with whom I had personal contact who did not think that it was in the interest of the Jews that Jews should cominate the cultural life, the legal profession, the sciences, the economic life as much as they did at that time. There were aspects in it that gave the people an anti-Semitic tendency at that time. and here the influences also seemed from my point of view to be particularly pernicious because tendencies were represented in the Jewish influence which I had to consider as definitely non-German and non-artistic, especially in the field of painting and music.
Gesetz, which in fact excluded the Jews radically from German cultural life but left possibilities for exceptions. Wherever I was in a position to apply these exceptions, I did so. the responsibility for it. I was at that time not a member of the Cabinet, so, whatever I could do, I did to see to it that the Jews, as well as people who had ever dealt in the cultural life should be helped by me as long as I was in the Propaganda Ministry. Everybody who knows me from any activity during that period will have to testify to that.
DR. SAUTER: In my document book, number one and two, I have submitted two affidavits, the first one by the editor of the "Frankfurter Zeitung", Albert Oeser, and the other one by the lawyer, Dr. Rosen.
I ask you to take judicial notice of both of these documents.
The first Frankfurter Zeitung" and was concerned about a number of members of that Chamber of Culture.
That prohibited it.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, of course; also that law. Then the document in the document book number two, an affidavit by Dr. Rosen, confirms that the composer Dr. Richard Strauss and his non-Aryan grandchildren and, in doing
THE PRESIDENT: What exhibit number are you offering those as?
DR. SAUTER: In document book number one and two. I have submitted
THE PRESIDENT: One and two?
DR. SAUTER: One and two.
Q Dr. Funk, I have just said that perhaps you could--but quite briefly-give us some more examples of cases in which you used your official position to intervene for artists who, because of their attitudes, had difficulties. Will you mention some names?
A Richard Strauss is a special case. That remarkable composer raninto great difficulties on account of a book, the text of which was written by a Jew, Stefan Zweig, and I succeeded, in having Richard Strauss again received by the Fuehrer, and the whole affair was just passed over.
Similar difficulties were made for Dr. Wilhelm Fuertwangler because he spoke favorably of the compaser Hindemith in an article, and then, of course, the composers with Jewish wives, like Lehar, and others, had difficulties continuously. There were prohibitions against the performance of their works, and I succeeded in getting from Hitler permission for these composers to have performances of their work.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant can say that he helped hundreds of jews, but that does not destroy the fact that he may have acted hostilely by signing decrees against the Jewish race -- his helping few Jewish friends. Anyhow, I do not think that it need be gone into in any detail.
DR. SAUTER: We are of the opinion, Mr. President, that to judge the character and the personality of the defendant, it may be of a certain importance whether decrees with an anti-Semitic tendency were signed by him because as an official be considered himself duty-bound to execute laws on the basis of his oath, or whether he signed these laws because he himself was an anti-Semite and because he wished to persecute Jewish citizens and to deprive them of their rights, and for this reason only.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal thinks that you have made the point quite clearly that he helped Jewish friends, but it isn't a question which need be gone into in detail.
DR. SAUTER: I come now, Mr. President, to another point. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. I want to ask the defendant how, in the course of years, his activiti developed in the Propaganda Ministry.
A. Just exactly in the same, direction as I have described here. I was in charge of a large cultural, economic concern, film companies, broadcasting companies, theaters, orchestras. I was chairman of the board of trustees of the Philharmonic Orchestra, and in the Propaganda Council of German Economy where activity of publicity in an economic field was concerned, and the participation of the economy itself in that activity. Those were the main parts of my work.
Q. Witness, concerning your activity in the Propaganda Ministry, the Prosecution has submitted an affidavit by the former Reich Chief of the Press, I believe, Max Amann, under No. 3501-PS, to which I want to refer now.
In that affidavit, we find the sentence that you, Dr. Funk, and I quote literally, "were practically the Minister in the Propaganda Ministry". And it says further on, and I quote again: "Funk exerted complete control over all means of expression in Germany, over the press, the theater, radio, and music." quite briefly because I have already submitted on affidavit to the contrary by Max Amann to which I will refer later. Reply with one sentence, please.
A. Amann knew the Ministry from the outside only, and therefore he was not informed about the internal business of the Ministry. My work was such as I have described here. It is definitely absurd to assert that under a minister such as Dr. Goebbels, the Ministry could have been led by someone else who was not really the Minister.
Dr. Goebbels assumed such an exclusive and conclusive position in the field of propaganda that beside him no one else could have any importance.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in that connection, in the appendix to my document book, under No. 14 -- that will be Exhibit No. 3 -- I have an affidavit by that same former Reichsleiter Max Amann which I have submitted. It is the appendix to the document book, and I ask you to take judicial notice of this affidavit. I don't think I have to read it. of a member of the Prosecution. that Reichsleiter Max Amann also confirms that Funk did not have anything to do with propaganda as such. That is to say, he did not make any speeches over the radio, nor propaganda speeches of any kind, but he was mainly concerned with the organization and administration of the Ministry only.
Now, Mr. President, I come to the attitude and position of the defendant as Minister of Economics. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Dr. Funk, until 1937 you were State Secretary in the Propaganda Ministry, and then, at the end of November 1937 you become Reich Minister of Economy after your predecessor Dr. Schacht had left that post. took place and why you were called to that post?
A. That came about quite as a surprise to me, too. During a performance at the opera, the Fuehrer, who was present, took me to the side during an intermission and explained to me that the differences of opinion between Schacht and Goering could no longer be bridged, and that therefore he had to dismiss Schacht as Minister of Economy and was asking me to accept the post since he knew about my previous knowledge and my experience in the field of economics.
He also asked me to get in touch with Reichsmarshal Goering who would explain everything else to me. respect.
Q. And then you spoke to Goering himself? Will you describe that.
A. The Reichsmarshal told me that in fact he had intended to put only a state secretary in charge of the Reich Ministry of Economics, but that later he came to the conclusion that the large machinery of the Four-Year Plan should be merged with the extensive machinery of the Ministry of Economics, but that the minister had to follow his directives in his work, and in particular the General plenipotentiaries for the various decisive branches of economy should be maintained and they would take their directives immediately from the General Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan. tion, the Reichsmarshal himself assumed leadership of that Ministry, and in February 1938 he took me into the Ministry.
Q. So it was Goering who for a quarter of a year himself was practically the chief of the Reich Ministry for Economics?
A. Under his leadership that reorganization took place. The leadership of economic policy, of course, was in his hands at that time as well as later. The main posts of leadership in the Four-Year Plan remained the same, and there was a post which gave directives to the Reichsbank; there was the post concerned with food, which gave directives to the Food Ministry, the post for manpower the post which gave directives to the Labor Ministry, and there remained the general plenipotentiaries for the various branches of the economy, that is, for coal, for iron, for chemistry, and so on, which were directly subordinate to the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan. That is to say, the Ministry of Economics in that way received several offices transferred to it from the Four-Year Plan office which continued to work independently, such as the Reich Office for Economic Research, which was in the hands of Professor Strauch, the Reich Office for Soil Research, which State Secretary Kempner, who was mentioned in connection with Slovakia and Asutria, was in charge of.
I tried to get these offices out of the Ministry again. I don't know today exactly what happened, but they felt that they were still under the Four-Year Plan anyway.
Q. Dr. Funk, the most essential fact among the ones you have mentioned seems to me to be that you had the title of minister, but that in fact you were not really the minister, but maybe had the position and the function of a state secretary, and your so-called Ministry of Economics was subordinate definitely to the directives of the Four-Year Plan, that is to say, your codefendant Goering, and was bound to follow these directives.
Did I understand it correctly?
A. Yes, the latter is correct. The Reichsmarshal has explained and confirmed that here himself. But the first statement is not correct because at any rate, at least formally, I had the position of minister and had a tremendous administrative field to take care of, with which the Reichsmarshal, of course, was not concerned, and that was just the purpose of the reorganization. The Reichsmarshal was in charge of economic policies in decisive phases, and gave me the directives, but the execution, of course, was in the hands of the Ministry and its organizations. it. There was still the ministry above this ministry, so to speak. But that always happened to me during all my life. I always, so to speak, came up to the door, but 1 was not permitted to enter.
Q. In this trial, it happens differently.
Dr. Funk, the Prosecution asserts that although you were not really minister with the usual responsibilities and independence of a minister, in spite of that, under your supervision as Reich Minister, those parts existed in German economy which strategically fell in the group of armament and war industry, that is, particularly raw materials and work materials, mining, the iron industry, power stations, crafts, finance and credits, foreign trade, and foreign currency.
I remind you, Dr. Funk, of the statements on page 22 of the German translation of the trial brief, which I discussed with you several days ago.
the things stood in fact. I had nothing to do with the armament industry. The armament industry at first was under the High Command of the Armed Forces, under the Chief of the Armament Office, General Thomas, who belonged to the conspiracy of Schacht, of which you have heard here. The armament minister Todt, who was put in office in 1940, soon took over the entire power economy from me, and later I turned over all civilian production to the Armament Minister Speer.
Q What do you mean by civilian production?
A By that I mean coal, chemical industry, consumer goods in general. The main branches of production of that field which have been mentioned here already, and I said it before, were under the general Plenipotentiary of the Four Year Plan. So it came that the Ministry of Economies became a pure Ministry of Commerce. This was only concerned with the distribution of consumer's goods.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, maybe we can still lot him talk for a few seconds because then, after a second, I would come to the chapter of Reichsbank President. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Will you please continue briefly? I believe you wanted to speak about gold in foreign currency. Who was competent for that? was competent for that, according to whose directives the Reichsbank had to have.
Q And a foreign trade?
A The foreign trade was with the Foreign Office. The Minister of foreign affairs was tenaciously taking care of that. Reichsbank, that is the clearing agreements, accounting, and so on.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, now I come to a chapter in which I should like to deal with his position as Reichsbank President. I believe that would be the best moment to adjourn.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 6 May, 1946, at 1000 hours.)
Tribunal in the matter of: The United States of
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I will continue with my questioning of the witness Dr. Funk. Saturday morning we were discussing the question of the appointment of Dr. Funk as Minister of Economics in the Reich and now I should like to turn to his appointment as President of the Reichsbank. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Mr. Witness, in January 1939, I believe it was, you become President of the Reichsbank as successor to Dr. Schacht. How did that appointment come about? January of 1939. I was called to the Fuehrer's office and found the Fuehrer in a state of great excitement. He told me that the Reich Minister of Finance had told him that Schacht had refused the necessary credit, and that consequently the Reich was in financial straits. his policies, that he would not tolerate such treatment on Schacht's part in the future, that if the Reichsbank should try to disturb and oppose his policies -- and the gentlemen in the Reichsbank Directorate were utter fools -he would not tolerate it any longer, and no power and no chief of state in the entire world could possibly make its policy dependent on cooperation or noncooperation of its bank. credits to be issued by the Reichsbank to the Reich would be done by himself according to the demand and suggestion of the Reich Minister of Finance. He further stated that he had given Lammers permission to work together with the Reich Minister of Finance, and to issue a decree by which the position of the Reichsbank, in line with the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, would now be changed, and the granting of credits to the Reich would be handled by him alone in the future.
of the Reichsbank, upon which request I replied that I would be glad to follow his wish, but that first of all I had to have confirmation from him that the conditions for stabilization of currency would be maintained. granting of credits at that time inflation would be brought about, is wrong, and that position is untenable. Twelve billions of credit can have an effect of inflation, and 20 billions of credit do not in any way tend to work toward inflation if the state has the necessary authority to stabilize prices and wages, and further has the authority to regulate prices and economy, and if the people maintain the proper discipline in this respect, and if, finally, the financial means which result as the expansion of credit goes on and represent a further purchasing power, are diverted through taxes or taken up through loans, then as far as the currency and stabilization are concerned, there is absolutely no danger. kept on a stable basis and an even keel. As far as the most essential things of life are concerned, the purchasing power of money in Germany was stable. of course, the purchasing power of money was limited in so far as consumers goods were produced only on a very limited scale, for almost all the production was turned over to armaments.
Q Dr. Funk, have you concluded?
A Just one moment, please. I believe this is a very decisive question. these credits did not in any way cause an inflation. The store of debt applied in the United States as well as in England, and relatively speaking, and even applying an absolute standard, this ratio of debt was much higher than that in Germany and in many other countries. The monetary policy overthrew the old thesis that a war would, of necessity, bring about a disturbance in the monetary system and the monetary value. tained a most admirable discipline. The money can serve as a function of state, and currency will function as long as the state has the authority to maintain the currency on a stable basis, to keep the economic sphere under control, and as long as the people themselves maintain the necessary discipline.
It wasn't at all that I took overthis office with the knowledge that Germany was now entering into an inflationary period, but on the contrary, I knew full well'that through the maintaining of the necessary governmental policy, the currency couldbe protected, and the currency was protected.
However, the basic difference between Schacht's position and my position consisted of this fact, that on the part of Schacht the Reichsbank could determine issuing of credits from the Reichsbank, whereas in my case, this authority was taken from me and the responsibility for domestic financing, therefore, was in the hands of the Finance Minister, and that, of course, meant the Fuehrer himself.
Q Dr. Funk, I have another question. Perhaps, despite your poor state of health today, you might be able to speak a little more loudly so that the court reporters might understand you a little more easily. I wonder if you could try just a little bit. We will try to make this as brief as possible. up to now, in addition to these you had a further office as a successor of Dr. Schacht. This office was the General Plenipotentiary for Economy. Can you give us your attitude and your position in this respect in order to clarify your person, your activity, and your achievements? Reichsmarshal has correctly stated, and as Dr. Lammers confirmed as well. It was a position that I merely held on paper, and there was an essential difference in the position which Schacht had and in the position which I had. I, on the other hand, was the Plenipotentiary for Economy. According to the Reichs Defense Law of 1938, the General Plenipotentiary for Economy was to handle the civilian economy departments and coordinate these departments in preparing the work for a possible war. But, in the meantime, these economic departments had been subordinated to the Plenipotentiary of the Four Year Plan, and I, as General Plenipotentiary for Economy, was also subordinate to the Plenipotentiary of the Four Year Plan. was concerned, as these were laid- down formally, there was a disparity, unclearness, confusion, which resulted in a directive of the Fuehrer just a few months after the beginning of the war, that de jure, that is, legally, the instructions for the General Plenipotentiary of Economy, as far as the economic departments were concerned, that the authority would be given to the Plenipotentiary of the Four Year Plan.
Q When was that?