A No. Medical students participated in the courses of Altrese. The; were young physicians who had just about completed their study. These were courses for the benefit of students.
Q All right, Doctor, when -- did young medical men -- did they be. these young medical men in attendance at the school, have to belong to any Party organizations?
A No, that was not necessary.
Q Well, isn't it true that if they didn't belong to the Party orgazations or to the National Socialistic League of Students or Physicians th they were considered as suspects, and that if a student belonged to no orgazation whatsoever and then had the intention to take the State examination he had no other alternative but to join some Party organization? Did he?
A I should like to answer that what Professor Liebrandt also said about that matter: when Professor Liebrandt was asked whether he deemed it pess that the attendance at Altrese was not compulsory, and that many more phys cians had reported at that school than could be accepted there, Professor Liebrandt, according to my recollection, answered the following: I believe that the young person tried to get opportunities to progress, and in effect it was true that nearly all medical students in some way or other, tried to join a national socialist formation. There were very few who were not a member of any such organization. I think you could count them on your find
Q How many young German doctors went through these courses, sponsored by this educational system under your jurisdiction, that is, how many men did you have in attendance at Altrese?
A Well, as you are expressing the question in the latter part, you were correct. You asked how many actually visited Altrese, but before that you were speaking about the educational system. I am rather surprised at that, because you had ma.de similar mention before, education, sports, etc. which would have meant a military organizational character. That wasn't the question at all. These young people there weren't educated but they merely attended such courses and lectures in order to gain knowledge for the University. You couldn't give them on the basis cf their curriculum, namely, about general subjects and official questions as they related to medicine. As to the amount of young physicians who attended this school, I think I can get that for you. According to my memory the school was completed around 1935, and I don't think any young physicians were in attendance then. Then courses started for dentists, older physicians, mid wives and pharmacists, which all together amounted to about five to six courses. Even if you think that there were approximately six courses, numbering. 120 men each, you would have roughly 750 men per year. Now thinking, of the year 1936, 1937 and 1936 and then only part cf 1939 - 1939 not completely, because the war started the 1st cf September, 1939, approximately you could arrive at a figure of the amount of people who attended, and that passed through Altrese. We really couldn't accomodate all who wanted to come because of so many reasons.
Q I understand that. Now, doctor, you have stated just what I have been waiting for, the purpose of this Fuehrer school at Altrese, was to complete and round out the young doctors' education, to furnish what was necessary considering he did not receive that in medical school. Now you stated in an interrogation, among other subjects, not here on direct examination, but in a previous interrogation, that among ether subjects, you were also in charge of instructing young German doctors in political orientation What exactly did you teach them in Altrese in the line of political orientation?
A This political orientation is public health orientation, and it is quite clear that I preached no opposition to the national socialist regime, that is quite obvious because at the time, I myself was a convinced national socialist, and there was no reason to hide my conviction in the least.
Q Well, did that political orientation include the points of view which you so eloquently expressed in your book?
A May I perhaps ask you what points of view you are referring to, bec I am sure there are a few hundred different points mentioned in my book.
Q Well, for instance, what did you say in your lectures about the life worthiness of individuals as applied to individuals of specific national or racial groups? Did you mention that at all?
A The question seems to me so important and I would ask you to repeat that question once more in order to avoid any misunderstanding.
Q In your lectures at Altrese, did you concern yourself with the life worthiness of individuals as applied to individuals of specific national or racial groups?
A One word was translated as individual life value. I don't think that is quite correct, that is something that doesn't lend a correct sense to the entire question.
Q Did you draw any racial lines in the course of your lectures at the school in Altrese?
A With reference to the lectures that concerned the field of racial medical science and questions of heritage which wore pursued on a completely scientific basis, we had a special professor who had a heritage research institute, and at this department which had international characteristics ti reached as far as America, this professor held purely scientific lectures on field of racial hygiene and heritage questions, as you could find it all even the world in all languages.
He held these lectures on a very objective and factual basis.
Q Well, doctor, to what extent did you stress hereditary determination
A Excuse me, I don't quite understand the question.
Q Well, did you - I will re-phrase it, doctor, in another manner. We will get to the core quickly, and do away with this subject.
To what extent were your teachings responsible for the thwarting and distortion of gifted young German physicians, who without proper guidance performed the evil deeds which we have heard in this court room, and the terrific examples of Dr. Rascher and Dr. Ding-Schoeler?
A The translation did not come through very well, but I believe that I understand the sense of your question. I had already stated before during direct examination that this chapter concerning experiments on human beings was never dealt with in Altrese. These was no reason to do that whatsoever, no reason to deal with any such questions. Moreover, cur teaching, as it was directed towards all physicians, was based on general international recognize and valid ethical principles of the medical science a.t large. You will not be in a position, even if you could search for ten years, to get any person who attended Altrese to tell you that any evil word was said in that connection in Altrese or any bad example was set there, and that is the reason why I already stated here that I bear the responsibility for the school at Altrese, that I bear it alone, and that I like to bear it.
Q Well, then you never discussed with your students at Altrese, or indoctrinated your students, along Nazi lines, that is, establish in the students a hatred for the Jews, or any other such Nazi policy, is that right
A No, in Altrese, no policy of hatred was pursued, neither towards Jew in general, nor towards any people throughout the world.
Q Then you deny that any of your teachings were responsible in encouraing German doctors to give interior service to the groups of people who for political, racial and religious reasons were deemed undesirable by the State and naturally were confined in concentration camps, is that right?
A May I ask you to tell the interpreter not to translate "deny" with "ableugnen". I did not have the intention to deny anything; but I do have intention to put something right if it is wrong. Just generally I want to state again in connection with that question; in Altrese, neither by writing or by lectures, any subject was preached; which in any way could have formed the basis for any crimes performed in the future; as you seem to hint.
Q. Dr. Leibbrandt had a different view, didn't he?
A. Well, may I tell you in that connection that I don't hold the fact of your putting that question against you, but when speaking about the testimony of Leibbrandt I must say that I agreed to part of his statement. One has to state that neither Leibbrandt nor one of the people he spoke about attended this course at Altrehse. So, therefore, he cannot say anything positive about it. Whatever he knows he may perhaps only know from what he read in my book.
Q. Well, we will go by that, doctor. Now in your book you have stated, you have given your reasons for stating so in direct examination, on page 221 that sterilization is no shame, it is even not a punishment, it is a sacrifice which has to be borne by the individual for the future of his nation. Now you advocated this policy for Germany in order to secure healthy offsprings for the nation, is that right?
A. Not I personally. The law did not originate on my initiative. At the time the law was issued I had no influence on it whatsoever. I must state, however, that the basic tendency of this law is absolutely correct and found approval not only at home but also abroad. Other states who have accepted that law have created their own sterilization laws. I know of the United States - that there was some legislature in some states of that nature. I think that since 1945 it is said to apply to the entire United States. That is I certainly couldn't check while in imprisonment. The aim of sterilization is to avoid getting unhealthy heritage into the people and therefore creating a healthy breed.
Q. What is your point of view concerning abortions, doctor?
A. Abortions? It is my opinion that abortion is a punishable act. In Germany there are valid laws in that connection which go back to the time of the Monarchy, which also go back to the time of the German Republic under the Weimar constitution and continue into the period of National Socialism. At all those times abortion was punishable in Germany and I think that is quite correct.
Q. Well, then you think that abortion would be a crime against the nation in that it denies the fatherland of healthy and numerous offsprings?
A. Yes. That is my point of view. I think that abortion is a crime against the fatherland.
That is my opinion.
Q. Well, in your position in the Reich Health Office as deputy to Conti did you ever receive decrees or orders which were given out by Conti?
A. This question is put in such a general way that I can hardly do anything with it.
Q. Well, I will break it up for you. Did you have occasion to see every order that Dr. Conti issued in his position as Reich Health leader?
A. You mean whether I had the opportunity to see these orders or define my position toward this.
Q. I asked you did you have the opportunity to see each order that Dr. Conti issued, in his capacity as Reich Health leader here?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you have an opportunity to see a great many of the orders that were issued by the office of Conti in his position as Reich Health leader?
A. It is not easy for me to answer that question because I don't know what orders Conti issued in his capacity as Reich Health Fuehrer. You must consider that Conti in his position as Reich --
Q. Let's not go into that, doctor. I understand fully the capacities of Conti. Did. you ever discuss with Conti the question of abortions?
A. No discussions were necessary. That was an opinion which was quite clear to all physicians as a matter of course.
Q. Did you ever discuss the question of abortions with Conti in the case of female Eastern workers - not German people?
A. Yes. I -----
Q. What Were your discussions, doctor.
A. This is what the matter was about. Conti, apparently in collaboration with Himmler, had the intention to carry out as many possible abortions in the cases of pregnant Eastern women. In this connection a plan was taken under consideration which would make abortion compulsary. I resisted this plan very vehemently, and very soon afterwards a ruling was made by Conti in agreement with Himmler according to which abortions in the case of Eastern workers was permitted whenever they desired them. Certain formalities were provided in that connection so as to prevent the misuse of such abortions. The expert dealing with that question was a Munich gynecologist with whom Conti discussed these matters in detail and I remember that on the basis of my Objection against these compulsary abortions Mr. Conti gave the order that in the future he, Conti himself, should be contacted and I should be left out of these questions.
That resulted from my objection and also the fact that these abortions were not compulsary.
Q. Were you aware of the fact, Dr. Blome, that the Reich Health leader's office issued a decree or an order to the effect that the unborn offsprings of Eastern workers should be done away with?
A. Well, may I express the question in a different manner so as to avoid a misunderstanding. You are saying that Conti has issued an order to carry out compulsary abortions in the case of Eastern women. Is that right?
Q. That's right. You know that?
A. No I don't know it and I don't think this order was issued.
Q. Well, to refresh your memory I will show you the order, doctor. This is document NO-190. It will be Prosecution Exhibit 461 for identification.
JUDGE SEBRING: Is that number 461?
MR. HARDY: That is Prosecution Exhibit 461, your Honor, for identification. Will you kindly give the witness here a German copy?
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Now, will you turn to the last page of this document, Dr. Blome, the last page.
A. If you want me to answer exactly --
Q. I just want to have you turn to the last page of this document. Now u you will notice there the sentence "I have been informed recently, that abortion on pregnant Eastern female workers may be performed. This communication was made to me confidentially. I would like to got more definite information, as this question may also come up here." Now, if you will turn to the next page.
A. The translation didn't come through. Will you please repeat your question?
Q. Does the Interpreter have a German copy of this document?
INTERPRETER: What paragraphs it?
Court. No. 1
HR. HARDY: The last page, the last paragraph. I will repeat it again. "I have been informed recently, that abortion on pregnant Eastern female workers may be performed. This communication was made to me confidentially I would like to get more definite----"
(interrupted by Dr. Sauter)
DR. SLUTER (Defense counsel for the defendant Dlono): Mr. President, I am in a dilemma, so to speak, for I really don't kn w what the defendant Blome is being accused of. For the la.t two hours I assumed that he was accused because he became a member of the National Socialist party or because he was a National Socialist. Then for another half hour I assumed that he is being accused of having founded a National Socialist Fuehrer school for young physicians and supervised it, but now it is ny inprossi n that it is the task of the defendant to answer to this American Tribunal because he allegedly participated in acts of abortion. That is completely new to me and it is quite new to me that this Tribunal should hava to judge about alleged acts of abortion. That is just a question of procedure. Now, Mr. President, something is being submitted to us; something which does not hear an aaddress, does not hear a date and has no signature. That, gentlemen, is nothing at all. With that the defendant or the defense can do n thing. If documents have to be submitted as evidence in this surprising manner at a tine when, for days and weeks, the prosecution's case has boon concluded against the defendant, I must, at least, ask that the defendant and the defense counsel bo given a photostat c y according to which it could be seen where this document originates, what date it bears, to whom it is addressed, and who actually did sign it. I object to the evaluation of this kind of document and I ask you to reject it.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel's objection is well taken. The document which has boon furnished to the Tribunal is simply dated at Zell, 27 November 1943. It does not show where it came from, by what authority, who issued it or what it is.
MR. HARDY: This document purports to bo notes and fragments of reports by one Koblonz in May or November f 1943. This was a document which was a captured German document. Some of it is written in the back. It scons to be mimeographed notes of the SS offices and it is, as I said, fragmentary evidence of a report captured by the French. I will turn it over to the Tribunal for their perusal.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in th t connection may I say that if any such piece of evidence is submitted I must demand that the submitted copies are at least complete. In ny copy there is no signature while there seems to be a signature on the original.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is correct. The original should be submitted to Counsel, or photostatted copies, so it can be studied. There should also appear the purpose of any cross examination of this defendant in connection with this document. He could be asked if he had ever heard of it, but it should be clearly identified to him before that can be asked.
MR. HARDY: The purpose of this document, Your Honor, is to show that the Health Office, the Reich Health Office, in which the defendant Blome was Deputy to Reich Health London Conti, was involved and issued a decree concerning the abortion of Eastern female workers. That is my purpose in introducing it and in bringing this subject up to the defendant, to see if he has any knowledg of it in his capacity as Deputy.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you, this evening, submit the photostat or show the original to the Counsel and again make your offer in the morning?
MR. HARDY: I'll do that, Your Honor. Yes, Your Honor. Will you hand me the original of that, please.
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, do you maintain that his thing you have handed up here is supposed to be some kind of a decree?
HR. HARDY: No, I maintain that this mentions a, decree issued by the Reich Health Office. You will note, Your Honor, on the next to the last page, the sentence in the second paragraph in the middle: "In this connection it must be mentioned that the decree of the Reich Chief for Public Health (Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer) concerning the interruption of pregnancy on Eastern female workers is in general willingly complied with. Thus, in the district of Simmer out of 10 reported cases of pregnancy, 6 have been interrupted successfully." Now, my purpose in introducing this is to find out whether or not the Deputy of this office that issued the decree had any knowledge of it.
JUDGE SEBRING: What do you maintain this thing is?
MR. HARDY: I maintain this is fragments of a report. On the back of the first page you will note that it is an original captured document on certain stenciled paper of the office of an organization named Koblenz.
I will endeavor to get this photostatted or I will turn it over to defense counsel and he nay examine it this evening and we will go on with it tomorrow, Your Honor.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I draw your attention to something else so th t hr. Hardy can consider this other objection until tomorrow. I have just head that there is mention in this document about a report which was made by a certain "V.M." V.M., according to my knowledge, is the abbreviation form confidential agent belonging to the Security Service (SD) which was indicted as a criminal organization during the International Military Tribunal proceedings here in this very room, and it is a matter for the prosecution whether they want to rely on the report of a confidential agent belonging to a criminal organization. I, personally, would n t do that.
MR. HARDY: I have not comment, Your Honor.
WITNESS: Perhaps I can clear up this question and perhaps I can clear it up very quickly. In my opinion, this concurs absolutely with what I have said before when this fragmentary document was submitted to me. I said that those abortions were tolerated; that they were voluntary and, in my opinion, that is the best confirmation for what I have stated before and it says here, word for word: "Thus, in the area of Simmer, in the case of 10 pregnant women, 6 had been interrupted successfully." This shows quite clearly that we are concerned with voluntary abortions, for if they had been done by force, not only 6 would have boon interrupted, but all 10.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q We'll go into th t question later in detail.
Now, Wagner, your first superior, was Reichsaerztefuehrer and Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer from 1934 until his death. Is that correct?
A. No, that is not quite correct. Dr. Wagner was never Reich Health Leader. The position of Reich Health Leader was only created after Wagner's death. Th a was in April, 1939. Up to that time there was no such position.
Q. Then, Dr. Wagner did not hold a position as Secretary of state for Health Matters in the Ministry of the Interior. Is that right?
A. Yes, that is right. This position was held by Ministerialdirecktor Dr. Guettgen up to eight days before the outbreak of the war. The Dr. Guettgen was relieved by Dr. Conti and this position was promoted to a position on the level of a Secretary of State.
Q. Well, then Dr. Conti succeeded Dr. Wagner only in that capacity of Reichsaerztefuehrer. Is that right?
A. Yes. Reich Physicians' Loader and Reich Leader of the Public Health Office of the NSDAP.
Q. That is not to be confused with Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer? I an talking now about Conti. When Conti succeeded Wagner, Wagner had only one position - Reichsaerzetefuehrer? Wagner was never Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer. Is that right?
A. We, Wagner was never Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer. The concept of Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer was only created after Wagner's death. Wagner was, first, Reichsaerzetefuehrer (Reich Physicians' Leader) -- that is, the head of the Reich Chamber of physicians, and secondly, he was the head of the Main Department for Public Health of the NSDAP. Thirdly, he was the head of the National Socialist Physicians' League. Wagner held no state position.
Q. All right, then Conti succeeded Wagner in all those capacities. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Well the, it might be said th t after Conti took over office, Conti held only three positions, that is, three titles -- Reichsaerzetefuehrer, Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer and Secretary of State for Health Matters in the Ministry of the Interior. Is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct, with the limitation that Conti didn't become Secretary of State in the Ministry of Interior immediately after Wagner's death but only in August, 1939 -- that is, a few months later, and, that furthermore, in 1932 Conti became the head of the civilian health system under the jurisdiction of Brandt. ((Transcript: 1932))
Q. Well then, Dr. Wagner and Dr. Conti were your superiors in your position as Deputy to each man. Isn't that right? You were Deputy first to Wagner and then you were Deputy to Conti?
A. No, that is not correct. I had not beeb Deputy Reichsaerztefuehrer before that. That was a position held by a certain Dr. Bertels.
Q. Well, the, you first title Deputy came when Conti took office. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. I see.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I am going on to the subject of euthanasia now and this might be a good breaking point.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(A Recess was taken until 0930 hours, 20 March 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal I in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on . 20 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and. this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants arc present in court with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser, absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: Tho Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court save the Defendant Oberheuser, who is confined to the hospital on account of illness, under excuse from the Tribunal.
KURT BLOME -- Resumed
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, defense counsel for the Defendant Hovon has here in Nurnberg at the present time a witness named Pieck, who is from Holland And must return to Holland this afternoon. In order to hear this witness, I have agreed with defense counsel of Blome and for Hoven to put the witness on t 9:30 if it is agreeable with the court, and have Defendant Blome stand aside until such examination of this witness is completed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal understands that this arrangement is satisfactory to counsel for the Defendant Blome?
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for Defendant Blome having agreed, the Tribunal approves the hearing of the witness on behalf of the Defendant Haven at this time.
The Defendant Blome will stand aside from the witness box until the testimony of the witness to he sworn is finished.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the Defendant Hoven): With the approval of the High Tribunal, I am calling the witness Henri Pieck.
THE PRESIDENT: What language does this witness speak, what language will he testify in?
DR. GAWLIK: When answering my questions the witness will speak German and when answering the questions of the prosecutor he will speak English.
TRE PRESIDENT: The Marshall will summon the witness H.C. Pieck.
Are the translators prepared to cover the situation that has been referre to, the witness answering German and English?
INTERPRETER (Rammler): Yes.
H.C. PIECK, a. witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. The Tribunal will administer the oath to you in the English language Repeat after me: I swear that the evidence that I shall give in this cause, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help mo God.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
Counsel for the Defendant Hoven may proceed with the examination of the witness.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, your name is Henry Pieck, is that right?
A Yes.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born in Den Helde, in Holland, on the 19th of April, 1894.
Q What is your nationality?
A I am a Dutchman. I come from the Netherlands.
Q What is your profession at this time?
A I am an architect and a painter.
Q Would you shortly describe your career to the Tribunal?
A Yes. As I said before, I was born in Helde and was brought up there until I was 11 years old, as the son of a naval officer. After my father received his pension we went to The Hague where I started my studies. Afterwards I went to a private school where I studied art, and I later went to the academy at Amsterdam. I then painted and traveled. My present profession, which I have exercised for some time, is architect for our government. I take care of foreign exhibitions and things of that nature. I built part of the Economic Partition of the Dutch Pavillion at the Exhibition in New York and I am still working at this type of work.
Q When and for what reasons were you arrested by the Germans?
A I was arrented by the Germans on the 17th of June 1941, in The Hague, because of having printed illegal writings in my workroom.
Q Where were you imprisoned?
A I was first imprisoned at Scheveningen in the so-called cell barracks, later I was sent to the penitentiary where I stayed for a year. Afterwards I was sent for two days to Amersford and then for a year and a quarter I went to Buchenwald, where I stayed until the liberation.
Q When, exactly, did you go to the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A That was on the 2nd or 3rd of April, 1942.
Q What was your activity in the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
AAt first I was a street worker at Buchenwald, which was rather hard work.
I was later used as a male nurse in the hospital. With the aid of Dr. Hoven I took care f the sick but really did mostly painting there. I partly did scientific paintings and partly painted just as a painter would.
Q Who was head of the hospital?
A That was Dr. Hoven--DR. Waldemar Hoven.
Q Do you recognize Dr. Hoven among the persons in the defendant box?
A Yes, certainly. He is the fourth man in the last row looking from the righthand side.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the fact that the witness correctly identified the Defendant Hoven in the dock. BY DR. GaWLIK:
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q What kind of prisoners were there in the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A There were a number of prisoners. Firstly, the most important group were the political prisoners; then there were criminal prisoners; then there were people who were loafers; then there were homosexuals; and then there were prisoners of war. Naturally there were Jews--they were a group in themselves. I am new going by their different designations.
Q What prisoners were designated as professional criminals?
A These were the criminal prisoners who had green badges.
Q What chevron did the political prisoners have?
A They had red chevrons but there was a little difference later because later allied political prisoners came over who also had red chevrons but with the addition of another letter which designated the country to which they belonged.
Q What kind of prisoners were the non-German prisoners, especially the members of the United Nations?
A They were mostly political prisoners. They all wore red angles, and then there were the prisoners of war.
Q What was the attitude of Defendant Hoven towards the prisoners?
A It was very favorable.
Q Can you state examples which illustrate the attitude of the Defendant Haven towards the inmates?
A Yes, I think I could cite a large number cf examples, and it is hard f or me to choose them. If you will permit me to look at some cf my notes I shall be able to give you a short report. For instance, the SS in the camp treated the inmates very roughly and it was always the case that whenever any such SS men entered any room an inmate had to call attention in a very German fashion. Everybody stock at attention very quickly until the so-called fuehrer said that they could relax now. This kind of business was never appreciated by Dr. Hoven. For instance, it was customary that an inmate would walk through the camp with an SS man and this "leader" always insisted that the inmate walk five steps behind the SS man, with his hand on his cap and the other hand near his leg. On the other hand, I often walked with Dr. Hoven through the camp and he always addressed me as Herr Pieck and he always said, "Don't be silly, keep your hat on." This is just a small example which is characteristic of him. I am just now speaking only about his behavior and I think we will later have an opportunity to speak about other details.
I would like to tell you about yet another example. When I arrived at the camp I was not allowed to write any letters, and I was not permitted to write to my wife who did not know I had gone to Buchenwald. After having established contact with Dr. Hoven after one month in the camp, and after having told him about that situation, he took me along to his scale and weighed me there. I weighed something like 75 kilograms, upon which he filled out an official form where it stated that my weight was 75 kilograms and that I was in a very good condition. After that he wrote to my wife, unofficially, saying the following: "In answer to your inquiry", and I again repeat that there was not an inquiry because my wife did not know I was in Buchenwald, "I am sending you this form." A few weeks later Dr. Hoven even went so far as to personally write to my wife when he was outside camp, he had the address from me, of course, writing to her as an old friend. In this letter he asked my wife to wrap shoes, clothes and many other things in a parcel and send them to his address.
My wife understood that there was some intrigue going on and naturally immediately answered, and just as a good old acquaintance would act, Dr. Hoven wrote a letter to my wife. Then Dr. Hoven again received a letter from her and showed me this letter from my wife where she wrote about my five children and about her own situation, and he also handed me all the things that she had sent him.
I am not sitting here, however, because I owe so much to Dr. Hoven personally. I am here because it is my opinion that the entire camp of Buchenwald is indebted to Dr. Hoven enormously.
Q In addition to the SS and Gestapo camp administration was there any illegal camp administration in Buchenwald?
A Yes.
Q Were you a member of this illegal camp administration?
A Really no. If you are speaking cf this illegal camp administration you have to consider that when we came to Buchenwald in the year 1942, the illegal camp administration consisted of only Germans, people who had been arrested after 1933 and who had already had more than 10 years of imprisonment behind them. They were the ones who had set up this illegal camp administration. The name "illegal" of course would not be necessary if it would not be true that there were only very few people in the camp who know about the existence of such an illegal camp administration.