A I can't tell you that, I am afraid. The representative of the Foreign Office who was in Belgrade would be in a position to give you information.
Q Now, the statement which you wrote out in your own hand to which reference was made yesterday --- did you write that statement out voluntarily?
A Well, like all statements which are being made here, if you see what I mean.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q Were you threatened with any punishment? Were you threatened with any punishment if you failed to write out that statement?
A Not in that way but the conversation was not on a very friendly basis.
Q Did you consider yourself having been under duress when you made that statement and do you consider the statements made there untrue because of that duress?
A Even in this difficult situation I try very hard to stick to the absolute truth because of my own conscience.
Q Are the statements you made in that document true to the best of your knowledge?
A Yes, which of course, does not exclude that I made an error somewhere but I did it to the best of my knowledge and belief in the same way as I am giving testimony here to the best of my knowledge and belief.
Q Would you prefer to have that statement in your own hands rather than in the hands of the prosecution, Dr. Altenburg?
A I don't mind -- either way. It doesn't make any difference to me.
Q Were you ever a member of the Party?
A Yes.
Q Since what date?
A I made an application in December 1935 and received the Party book toward the end of 1937 or the beginning of 1938.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I have no further questions, Your Honors.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW (Counsel for Defendant Felmy):
Q Dr. Altenburg, I would like one thing made quite clear to you, something which was discussed yesterday. When General Felmy became commander for Southern Greece who was it who had the final word in Athens? Who was the occupation power in Athens?
A It was the Italian zone of occupation under General DeLoso;
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
General DeLoso was the Italian Commander in Chief. As I said yesterday in a different context, as the occupation zone of the commander Southern Greece, we only had three or four villages in the vicinity of Athens; a part of the Piraeus for the fleet and then Cape Sunion where the Arabian Legion was stationed which was under General Felmy.
Q A second question: did you at any time discuss with General Felmy reprisal measures or did you intervene with him in this direction?
A No, because this did not become acute where he was concerned.
Q And one last question, Dr. Altenburg, which refers to what you said just before on cross examination: you expressed that you left Greece gladly because it was no longer a field of work for diplomats, if I understood you correctly. The situation had slowly developed in such a way in the interior of Greece on the basis of the general situation that the military authorities were the ones who had the final say.
A I believe that is what the prosecutor understood me to say.
Q I see. I would like to ask you something in connection with this answer of yours. I would like to know whether you thought it was right that military agencies who were committed down there were the ones who made the final decisions and were dominating in view of the situation as it had developed down there, particularly on the basis of the band situation.
A The band situation had not become so very acute in January but it was very obvious that there was a nervous tension in the country through the landing in Africa. In view of the restricted possibilities which I had as political representative down there which became more complicated through the fact that we, by which I mean the Reich Government, had left it to the Italian political influence, therefore, we had to take our own views from the Italians to a large extent. That connected the general tension and my own views seemed to make it better for me to disappear from that sphere if even for the reason, as I expressed in the telegram, either I had the responsibility or I didn't have one and the situation had to be a clear one; otherwise, it happens Court No. V, Case No. VII.
as it happened to me in Nurnberg that I am supposed to be held responsible for things for which I cannot possibly be held responsible.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for defendants List and von Weichs):
Q Dr. Altenburg, Mr. Fenstermacher just now mentioned an examination which had been carried out by the prosecution in connection with your person. When was it?
A It was in April.
Q I see and when was your last examination by the prosecution?
A You mean the prosecution of this court?
Q Yes.
A That was, I believe, ten days or two weeks ago, I was asked by Mr. Rapp who had signed the armistice with the Greeks in Salonika and I gave him information to the effect that was Colonel General Jodl. Since at that time I was not yet down there in Greece, I gave him names of two gentlemen who I hope will be able to give him information about the contents of the capitulation conversation.
Q When you were interrogated was it pointed out to you that you could be allowed to have counsel?
A No, to the best of my knowledge, arrestees, unless they are indicted in part of a trial, are not allowed to have that.
Q You mean they are not allowed to have any here in Nurnberg?
A Yes.
Q Were you at any time threatened during those interrogations that you might be a possible defendant?
A Yes, Mr. Rapp once told me that I might become a defendant in one of these trials but I answered it would be difficult to find something to charge me with.
Q Was that during one of the interrogations for this trial?
A That was in the afternoon of the 26th of June.
Q Was it connected with the interrogations of this trial?
A Yes, certainly; Mr. Rapp only interrogates for this trial.
Court No. V, Case No.VII.
DR. LATERNSER: Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY DR. MENZEL (Counsel fer defendant Kuntze):
Q Dr. Altenburg, I have three questions which, of course, refer to the time during which you had contact with General Kuntze; that is, the period from the end of 1941 to the middle of 1942. On cross examination you were asked about reprisal measures in Greece. In this connection is it known to you that there existed a big difference between Greece and Serbia; I mean that in Serbia at that time there were several sabotage acts and, of course, in retaliation reprisal measures, whereas in Greece there were only a few sabotage acts.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honors please, I object to leading the witness. He is obviously not hostile to the defense. I don't believe he is competent at all to make comparisons between Greece and Jugoslavia, unless he is first shown, as was shown in cross examination, he is shown not to know what was going on in Jugoslavia at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the witness should be qualified as to his knowledge of matters in which the counsel is endeavoring to interrogate him. The objection will be sustained.
Q I shall not ask this question but I would like to ask you another question. You said just before that in Athens the Italian occupation force was the one that was in charge.
A Yes.
Q Who then was responsible for the food situation in Athens?
A In principle, the Italians.
Q "In principle," you say, "the Italians."
A Since the Italians did not have anything to distribute, it was only logical that the Greeks approached us and asked us to help them however much we could which we did with pleasure.
Q If you as a German official concerned yourself with the food situation in Athens did you do something then which really did not fall into your sphere of work?
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
A Principally, it was started in the directives which we received from Berlin that every occupation power looked after its own zone of occupation. In that case we would have gotten off very favorably because the Salonika zone was easier to supply from Bulgaria than was the area down in Southern Greece and, apart from Crete and a few islands, all we had were the few villages around Athens; but on our initiative in agreement with the Greeks we said we couldn't really do that from a sense of moral obligation and we found understanding and we received promises which, however, later on -- I believe in October 1941 -- were mysteriously and suddenly stopped by a directive from Ribbentrop and then, as I stated yesterday, a communication of Field Marshal List gave me the possibility and opportunity to make representation in Berlin with the competent agencies and get promises for further distributions of supplies.
Q In the time period mentioned up until the middle of 1942 did you have any knowledge that there were recruitments for forced labor in Greece.
A No, that was not the case. Once or twice there were recruitments for such work.
DR. MENZEL: I thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION DR. GUENTHER ALTENBURG BY DR. WEISBERGER (For defendant Speidel):
Q Dr. Altenburg, during your stay in Greece and during your diplomatic assignment in Athens, did you manage to get any insight into the organization of the agency of the Military Commander for Greece?
A Military Commander Southern Greece, you mean?
Q Yes.
A He was the territorial commander.
Q I see. Did you manage to get any closer insight into the organization and the area of his jurisdiction and of the way in which his area of jurisdiction was organized?
A Those were mainly purely military questions, where I could not say in every individual case, that this is now the military commander, the territorial commander, or rather, this is the tactical commander in some other case. Where the civilian is concerned, this overlapped quite often.
Q How often did you talk to General Schimana?
A On very few occasions in Athens, but in Freising where we were detained together, I talked to him more frequently. Altogether, I believe twice in Athens when he arrived there, and made a visit. That was toward the end of October, and then a few days later, I invited him.
Q On these two occasions did you discuss with Schimana his position, his sphere of competency in any detail?
AAs is usual, he arrived and said that he was Strobe's successor as higher SS and Police Leader, and as is customary on such visits we did not discuss anything in great detail. He was, of course, in his assignment, for tactical purposes, subordinate to the Military Commander.
Thai is quite obvious.
Q Did he tell you the latter?
A I will have to say this - this conversation took place in the fall of 1943. Then in 1945, General Schimana and I met again in Freising in the attic of the barracks, and now after two years later it is very difficult for me to say what I heard now, and what the situation was in detail.
With the best will in the world, that is not possible after all one has gone through during these last years, and I do not want to commit myself, I have no intention to skate on thin ice, I am glad, of course, to clear anything up for you, but that is a bit too much.
Q Could you possibly tell this Tribunal whether you had any exact, official knowledge about the position and sphere of competency of the Higher SS and Police Leader of Greece?
A Could you give me the question again, please?
Q Could you possibly tell this Tribunal now whether at the time, I mean during your stay in Athens, you had exact official knowledge about the position and the sphere of competency of the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece.
A To the best of my recollection concerning Strobe, police matters were the decisive factor.
Q Whether the Higher SS and Police Leader in police matters was subordinate to the Military Commander, Greece - was this subject discussed between you and Schimana?
A You mean the limitation of the sphere of competency?
Q Yes.
A It was my impression that nobody was really very clear about this, if you want to know exactly what my impression was.
Q Can you tell us today how long you were in Athens in the fall of 1943?
A I left by air on the 3rd of November.
Q I see.
A In October I was not there except for the last few days, and in September I was not there, with the exception of one week. The last weeks of August I was not there either. In June and July I was away for some time. In March, April and May also, and also the last days of February.
Q In that event you could not tell us either, could you, whether during that period from the beginning of September until the time when you left, reprisal measures of the Military Commander or of the Higher SS and Police Leader were carried out.
A In September? No, I am afraid I cannot tell you that.
Q You mentioned yesterday that General Speidel, on the occasion of the second incident mentioned by you, did not carry out reprisal measures on the basis of your representations?
A I would like to say, in order not to exaggerate my position, it was not I alone who talked to the General, but there was also the Prime Minister Rallas, who talked to him at that time; also the Archbishop, although I am not quite sure whether he talked to him, but I believe I can recall that the Prime Minister Rallas did talk to him.
Q Can you tell us whether in that particular case reprisal measures had already been ordered?
A They were planned.
Q I beg your pardon?
A They were planned; they were a project.
Q And how did you get information of this intention, of this plan?
A Through the Greeks. It was like this, as a rule. Relatives would approach the Government, and the Government in turn would inform me, and then I would make an inquiry and find out what the situation was.
Q Did the relatives also approach the Greek Government or you if anybody had only been arrested?
A Yes, then too. It is only logical that in any dangerous situation everybody tries to help their family - the members of their family.
Q And you deduct from the fact that Greek families made representations to the Greek government on behalf of members of their families that reprisal measures were planned?
A There can be no doubt about that. That was confirmed to me in a conver in a conversation also.
Q And whether they were ordered; do you know that?
A Then we have to clarify what you mean by ordered. That was only the actual situation, which was still outstanding. The question was whether some people were to be shot or not. If you want to call it orders, then it was ordered. I call it intended.
Q What you want to say is that in this second incident which you mentioned to the best of your recollection, the carrying out of this reprisal order had already been ordered?
A It was to take place the next day, or the next but one day.
Q And which was the authority that gave you the information that this reprisal measure had already been ordered?
A The Greeks told me, that tomorrow or the next day some people were intended to be shot.
Q You base your statement only on information which you received from Greeks?
A In this case that was the situation. In the other case, from June, 1942, which I mentioned, the case with General Andre, in that case I was informed by the Charge deAffairs, Sofia by a telegram.
Q You can't remember all of the details of this second incident of summer of 1943?
A No, I am afraid I cannot. I could not even tell you exactly what the cause was for that measure, whether there was a surprise attack on an ambulance company or an explosion in Piraeus. I cannot even tell you what the cause was. It was impossible -
DR. WEISBERGER: Thank you. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there other defense counsel who wish to ask any re-direct questions of this witness?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor please -
THE PRESIDENT: Apparently not. You may continue with such re-cross examination as may be pertinent to the matters which have just been presented.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Thank you, Your Honor.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION DR. GUENTHER ALTENBURG BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Dr. Altenburg, you say that the Italians were in charge of the occupation of Athens during 1941 and '42, and until SeptemBer 1943. Are you able to explain why the hostages mentioned in the document which I showed you on cross-examination, hostages said to have been executed on the 5th of June, 1942, were executed by a German firing squad?
A Because the protection of the railway lines was in German hands. The railway line was under the protection of the German Military agencies which after all, were first in the country, and the protection of railways around Athens was in the hands of German military agencies.
Q Did you find Schimana understanding and approachable?
A Yes, that was the reputation which he had in contrast to his predecessor.
Q You have been in Nurnberg since April of this year, Dr. Altenburg. Have you been interrogated by the Prosecution in connection with cases other than this one since that time.
A Which one do you mean?
Q Can't you answer my question? Do you know whether or not you have been interrogated in connection with matters other than this case? The Foreign Office case which is now Case No. 11, for example?
A Yes, I believe I stated yesterday that I have been arrested because I can be a witness in the Foreign Office case also.
Q Did you ever ask for counsel since you have been in Nurnberg?
A I have contacted Dr. Mueller-Torgow whom I got to know through an affidavit, and I said if it becomes necessary I would like to call him.
Q Did you ever ask any representative of the office of the Chief of Counsel for War Crimes for permission to contact counsel in your own behalf?
A No, I know from similar cases that that is not admissible.
Q Did you ever ask, on your part, for counsel?
A No, this did not become acute in my case because in June, Dr. Kempner told me I would be discharged again quite soon.
Q You said that Mr. Rapp interrogated you, and that Mr. Rapp only interrogate in connection with this case. You don't know what cases Mr. Rapp interrogates in connection with, do you? For all you know, he interrogates in connection with every case in this building?
A I know Mr. Rapp only as an interrogator for this particular court, or for the case of the Southeast Generale, if you want me to put it that way.
Q But you do not know what Mr. Rapp's other interrogation activities are do you?
A No, I don't know that.
DR. WEISBERGER: No further questions, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION DR. GUENTHER ALTENBURG BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Dr. Altenburg, is it know to you that those arrested in this prison here are not allowed to talk to counsel until they have received the indictment?
A that is very well known.
A Yes, it is.
DR. LATERNSER: Thank you.
I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Are there any further questions?
DR. MUELLER_TORGOW: If it please the Tribunal, I would ask for this witness to be dismissed and I ask to be allowed to call the next witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Before this witness is passed, I will ask the members of the Tribunal if they have any statement to make.
I have this statement to make for the record, and it is made only on my own behalf, for which other members of this Tribunal have no responsibility.
In the proceedings yesterday afternoon, it was stated that there was a possibility that this witness might be extradited for trial in Greece, the suggestion was made that because of that fact there was a possibility that he could not or should not be released.
It is my personal request, and only a request, that it may carry such weight as my personal position bears, that before this witness is extradited, if he is extradited, he be given the opportunity to have counsel who shall appeal to the highest authority in Germany, and to such other higher authorities in the United States as may be justified under the circumstances.
That is all.
The witness may be excused.
ROBERT BERGHOFER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and be sworn; repeat this oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty, the Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION ROBERT BERGHOFER BY DR. MUELLER_TORGOW:
Q Witness, will you please state your full name?
A Dr. Robert Berghofer.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born in Nurnberg on the 13th day of April, 1909.
Q Where do you live?
A Nurnberg, Kressenstreet 4
Q What is your profession?
A I am a former Army Administrative Officer.
Q Herr Berghofer how does it happen that you know General Felmy?
A In May, 1942, I was called into the staff of General Felmy. That was approximately; I had before that worked for him a month before that on his special staff in Greece, and I was then assigned to transform this special staff F into the Special Command 287th in Berlin. From July until September, 1942, I worked on the transformation on the staff and of the supply troops under my command.
Then from the end of September 1942, until the beginning of March, 1943, to the best of my recollection, I was in Russia with General Felmy. Then I came back to Berlin to transform this Corps Headquarters 287th into what was later known as the 68th Corps. I remained in Berlin, with interruptions, from the end of March, 1943, until the beginning of July, 1943, when I came back to General Felmy to Greece. I was his Administrative officer, and until the end of the war I remained the Administrative officer of the 68th Corps.
Q For how long, roughly, were you altogether in General Felmy's staff?
A General Felmy left our Corps around Christmas, 1944, so the period was approximately 2½ years.
Q 2½ years?
A 2 to 2½ years. During that period I gained a fairly good picture of General Felmy as a man and as a superior.
Q You said that in May, 1942, you came to his special Staff "F"?
A Yes.
Q Did you immediately have close contact with General Felmy?
A No, not immediately. The General had his office in Athens, and we -
Q Who do we know by "we"?
A The remainder of General Staff F had their offices up in Sunion. General Felmy was simultaneously Commander for Southern Greece, and also Commander of Special Staff F.
Q And when did you come into closer contact with him?
A In Russia, toward the end of September and the beginning of October, 1942.
Q And from then on?
A Constantly until he left.
Q Witness before we will deal with your proper sphere of work, I would like to ask you some general questions because General Felmy has been indicted in this particular connection. Did you, in these 2½ years while you were a member of his staff, at any time learn anything about the fact that he himself ordered reprisal measures of any kind?
A No, I did not learn anything of that sort.
Q Would you have heard about it if it had been the case?
A I doubt that, because that is a purely tactical matter which has nothing to do with my sphere of work in particular, but it might have been possible that I would have heard about it.
Q Did you have frequent contact with other members of the staff?
A Yes.
Q Socially?
A Yes.
Q Would you have heard about it then?
A I think it is probable.
Q Mr. Berghofer you said that you were Corps Administrative Officer; what was your rank in the German Armed Forces?
A Lt. Colonel.
Q I see. What was your sphere of work as administrative Officer for the Corps?
A You mean in Greece, which is discussed here mainly. In Greece, the supplies of the 68th Corps were carried out by Army group E in Salonika. This army group had for this purpose a chief Quartermasters' Department in Athens.
Q What is a Chief Quartermaster's office?
A The Chief Quartermaster is the Quartermaster of the Army Group in Salonika.
Q I mean, what are his tasks?
A The Chief Quartermaster in Salonika had to deal with the total supply in the area of the Army Group E. This Chief Quartermaster as I have stated, had branch office in Athens and here was also an administrative officer, and from here, from this office, the 68th Corps received its distribution of supply. I myself was in charge of the direction and distribution of the stocks, in charge of the Chief Quartermaster branch office. These were concerned with clothing, food, hay, currency and accommodations, etc. all of those things whey were needed by the troops.
Q. In the sphere of supply were there any orders or directives concerning the supply for German soldiers?
A. Yes.
Q. I have in mind particularly the currency restrictions, if you want to discuss that for a moment?
A. There were in Greece, from higher agencies, orders concerning all parts of the Armed Forces and these orders were of a rather decisive nature which restricted the troops to a great extent. These measures on order of General Felmy, at least where our corps was concerned, were carried out vigorously. I may have in mind mainly the living off the land, which was carried out by Army Group E, if it was carried out at all and not by the 68th Corps. It was strictly forbidden, and if excesses occurred, then we sought to make up for it. Agreements existed in this sphere with the International Red Cross and these were always strictly observed by the 68th Corps. General Felmy again and again, on the occasion of oral reports which I gave to him and which took place almost daily, gave me the order and I have always passed on this order that the directives and instructions be adhered to rigorously.
The currency restrictions were of a particularly decisive nature, and the 68th Corps behaved in an exemplary manner. How the other parts of the Armed Forces, Navy, Air Force, let alone the SS, behaved I don't know. In the shops of Athens everything could be bought, starting from beautiful oranges to expensive diamond rings. Everything was there to be had. The military pay of the German soldier was so low that he could hardly buy a few cigarets which were there in abundance.
Q. How did the German soldier receive his pay, what currency?
A. To the best of my recollection, although I don't know it exactly, he received it partly in drachmen and partly in German bonds.
Q. Was it generally the case with the men and the officers?
A. Yes, officers and men.
Q. Herr Berghofer, what in particular was the situation concerning food stocks? Was there plenty of food in the country?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honor please, I object to this testimony as irrelevant and immaterial to the charges made in this indictment. General Felmy has not been indicted for anything in connection with the food supply of Athens
MR. MUELLER-TORGOW: If it please the Tribunal, I am trying to prove that General Felmy issued strict instructions concerning everything his soldiers did to help the Greek population and that in particular he made every effort not to take anything away from the country so that the food could be maintained and that the Greeks should not suffer. I believe that is part of the subject of terrorism which is under discussion here and it is furthermore part of the affidavit.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: The mention of the terrorization plan in the indictment, if your Honor please, is concerned solely with the reprisal measures and the executions of hostages and the concentration camps, deportation of slave labor. It is not concerned at all with the economic conditions which existed in Greece.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: I take it that part of this at least is preliminary. The objection will be overruled with the suggestion that the examination along this line be limited to matters which are pertinent to the charges which are before the Tribunal. I don't want to limit you, but we have to have some restriction somewhere along the way as to the matters under discussion.
With that suggestion the objection will be overruled.
Q. (By Dr. Mueller-Torgow) Herr Berghofer, I would like to quite briefly discuss with you immediate relief actions which were carried out by order of General Felmy in the interest of the Greek population. Can you make some comments about these?
A. Yes. On order from higher agencies in the Greek area combat commandants were established. Through these officers a certain area of jurisdiction was given completely into the hands of one such commandant. Thus, in the area of the 68th Corps this was the commander of the 117th Light Infantry Division. The consequence of this arrangement was an administrative limitation or isolation of the Peloponnes from the rest of Greece and where channels of command were concerned, it was also cut off from the 68th Corps.
General Felmy in the first discussion which he had immediately after these instructions arrived, informed me to arrange immediately that this administrative isolation should be changed. The danger existed that the civilian population of Athens could no longer receive foodstuffs from the Peloponnes which it needed desperately. I succeeded later in changing this order to the effect that with regard to the supply of Athens from the Peloponnes no change was made. The supply of Athens was given preference to the security of the German troops for it was well known that the tradesmen who traveled to and fro from Athens to the provinces were more or less camouflaged Partisans who transmitted news about the situation in Athens and about measures taken there, back and forth.
Q. In conclusion on this subject, were reads also built for this purpose?
A. Yes, the 68th Corps took a decisive part in the road building on the Peloponnes. Partly they participated in the building and partly they made suggestions. These roads did not only serve a tactical purpose. I would also like to recall all the irrigation measures and the artificial wells which were established by order of the 68th Corps and where the 68th Corps played an important part.
Q. Before that had there been no roads?
A. Yes, there were some roads before that but they were too narrow and insufficient.
Q. Herr Berghofer, let us now deal with that period of time where Greece was evacuated by German troops. At that time had many supply goods been stocked in the country by German military agencies?
A. There were enormous stocks of a fantastic amount in Greece. The plan of the OKW which existed up to then, or rather, of Army Group E in Salonika had been to keep the area stocked up for sixty days and for a military troop of fifty thousand men in the South. Everything concerning foodstuffs and preserves was to be stocked in that country. Furthermore, the troops were to be made so independent that they had everything ready in case they were encircled. Therefore, goods were transported down there, large quantities of iron, instruments, vehicles and masses of that stuff was distributed all over that area.
Q. Were there any orders issued from higher agencies around that date which concerned those supply goods stocked up in that country? What was to happen to these supply goods?
A. These goods were to be kept in readiness for the troops.