As I have already said in my curriculum vitae, they were of decisive importance in a negative sort of way == in a negative sort of way, because for years ahead they hindered my further professional training.
Q.- Of what nature were these happenings?
A.- Shortly after I had started my service in Doebeln, a dispute started between Dr. Dennicke, the mayor, and the local party, the Kreisleiter, district leader, Baer. It was a very severe dispute which took very serious shape eventually. This dispute was about the basis clarification of administrative function, even of institutional questions, The subject of the debate was the following, how much authority the Kreisheiter was entitled to, was he authorized and justified to deal with municipal activities and to use his authority in such sphere. The district leader had taken over authority or at least he tried to do so, which was not in compliance with clean and orderly administration. There were also personal reasons, a sort of craving for power which he had and intrigues and attacks on the mayor were in the order of the day.
Q.- What was your attitude in this dispute?
A.- For me, as lawyer, as an official, a municipal official who could look into the files it was not difficult to find out about the facts of the ease and the real background of the dispute and to recognize these reasons. It was equally clear to me that municipalities can only be administered properly according to actual constitution if such power acts on the part of the party authorities would be prevented in the future. Therefore, I took sides with the mayor and the town administration... of course I took up their side. The mayor fought because of its basic importance, and he fought to the last consequences, and took the matter up to the highest authorities asking for his right, to be iven the authority for the municipal administration. I myself was of the opinion at the time that just then at that time when such disputes were comparatively new, a basic clarification would have to be brought about. The Kreisleiter, district leader, tried with all means at his disposal to change my mind and he went rather far.
all his attempts rejected quite consciously. During the course of this dispute, I think it was Berlin the mayor contacted authorities of the SS, and one day he asked me whether I would not be prepared, with help of the file material, to write report, a factual report about the true conditions- to write such a report in fact for the SS. He had been asked for such a report by the SS authorities. Dr. Dennicke thought it would be a good idea if I would make out such a report as a comparatively new man in the municipal administration.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Riediger, do you think it is necessary to go into such painstaking detail on this episode?
Dr. RIEDIGER: your Honor, if I may take liberty to point out, this dispute, and the witness will come to that immediately, with the reasons for his taking over a job in the SD. Because of this report the defendant first contacted the SS, that is, the SD and, therefore, I think it is significant,and it will show the conditions as they were.
THEPRESIDENT: well,I think that is entirely in order. I would suggest however, that when you start into the woods you would tell us just what point you are aiming at because otherwise we are wondering just what is going to happen.
DR. RIEDIGER:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well. By DR. RIEDIGER:
Q.- What use did this report find which you made out?
A.- I may perhaps add one thing. Until that moment I personally had no connections or relation to the SS. At the time I was the in the NSKK or at least the NSKK had been formed from the motorized SA.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, what is the NSKK? That is a part of the woods that I am not familiar with.
DR. RIEDIGER:That is the National Socialist motorized corps of the party.
It included all civilian owners of cars and drivers, It was a formation of the party and does play a great part here.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
THE WITNESS:The report, through an indiscretion of a secretary was put into the hand of the Kreisleiter, the district leader, and the result of this was that I was released from the municipal administration, caused by the Kreisleiter, and that by a decree of the Kreisleiter I would be excluded from the party, This exclusion from the party was confirmed by the district leader, the gauleiter and, therefore, I was unemployed at the time. At that time it was not possible or at least it would not have been possible for me to get any job as an excluded party member. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q.- What did you do when were confronted with this exclusion?
A.- I appealed and I wanted to put the whole matter before the party court. But here again I was confronted with difficulties because one did not want recognize my right to appeal, and at that time an SS man arrived who again bold me what Dr. Dennicke, the mayor, had already told me, namely, that the SS was that authority who dealt with the cleanliness and the order of state and party and had to supervise this. Therefore, they had created their own organization which was still in the development stage and this organization was the SD. In order to deal with this supervisory task, this organization collected reports concerning such happenings as for instance had taken place in Doebeln. In order to see and prevent bad conditions. This was the first time that I heard about the SD and its existence.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Riediger, now that we have arrived at the SD, we have come out of the woods and before we plunge into another forest, suppose we have our recess of 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session,
DR.LINCK (Attorney for the Defendant Ruehl); Dr. President, would you please excuse my client from attendance this afternoon so that he can continue to prepare his own defense?
THE PRESIDENT:I didn't catch the name of the defendant.
DR. LINCK:Ruehl, Felix Ruehl.
THE PRESIDENT:Oh, yes, yes. The Defendant Ruehl will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon in accordance with the request of his attorney.
DR. LINCK:Thank you very much, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well
DR.HOFFMANN (Attorney for the Defendant Nosske): I have the same request to make for this afternoon for the defendant Nosske.
THE PRESIDENT:And the some ruling will be made,
DR.KOESSL ( Attorney for the Defendant Ott): May it please the Tribunal, the mother of the Defendant Ott has died very suddenly and I therefore wish to ask you to afford the Defendant Ott on opportunity to attend the funeral of his mother which will take place in Augsburg this afternoon. If the Tribunal would be kind enough to allow the defendant to leave the court room immediately, and would five him an opportunity to be taken to Augsburg immediately, he would still be able to attend the funeral there this afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Koessl, the Court has already been informed of the misfortune in Defendant Ott's family and we have already made the necessary arrangements. The Military Commander of the District has been informed and transportation and the necessary military guard will be supplied. The Defendant Ott will now be excused from attendance in court for the remainder of the day so that he may be taken to Augsburg to attend his mother's funeral and then will be returned in due course to Nurnberg.
DR. KOESSL:Thank you very much indeed, Your Honor.
Dr. RIEDIGER (Attorney for the Defendant Haensch) May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT:Please do. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
Q.- Dr. Haensch, how was it that you became an employee of the SD?
A.- As I have already stated, to begin with, I had no opportunity to find a job any where. I had no means of my own and I did not wish, nor was I able, to live with my parents. I tried everywhere to get a job and I always failed.
Next, the SD, which evidently regretted the fact that I had gotten into such a situation, made me an offer. It offered me to join the SD Oberabschnitt in Chemnitz which was at the time being organized and there I was to be placed in charge of legal affairs.
I accepted the offer except the SD tasks proper, that is to say, intelligence. I had nothing to do with that, nor was I expected to do so. I would not have agreed to undertake any such functions for the reasons that I was always interested in obtaining a position in the Government administration and I continued to adhere to that aim of mine. I refused a full time position in professional Party Work, as such and I had already refused it. For example, after I had taken my examination as an assessor I had had an offer to work for the German Labor Front as a lawyer and that offer I had refused. At a later time I refused a similar offer to take a position, a full time position, in the Party. It was in 1940 when I refused that offer.
Then in August, it was on the 1st of August, I think, the 1st of August, 1935, I joined the Chemnitz office as a civilian employee. To bein with, I nothing but a civilian employee and this was considered only a transitional solution by me and I was given assurance that at any time I could leave again as soon as an opportunity arose for me to change over into the career of these aims.
2. The proceedings to exclude you from the party had in the meantime come to an end, and what was the result?
A.No, the proceedings excluding me from the party -I want to say, the decision about the exclusion from the party -was in effect for more than a year -- a year and three months, in fact; -- naturally, I wanted to let justice. I was at that time convinced, and I am convinced now, that I had merely intended to serve a good cause, and that I had served for the cause of purity; therefore, I faught, and I was more or less on my own, fighting out this case, and I took it as far as the highest party court, that in to say, the Supreme Reich Court when, in August 1935, I joined the SD I was thrown out of the Party. The Supreme Reich Party Court in the late summer of 1936 revoked the decision to exclude me from the Party - that is to say, a decision to revoke was not made, but the Reich Party Court referred the matter back to the Gau Party Court, saying that the report had been made by the Supreme party Court and that all pre-conditions to exclude me from the party were looking. Now, the Gau Party Court was being asked to re-examine the matter. All the same, the Gau Party Court - apparently on the instigation of the Gauleiter, punished me. The decision to exclude me from the party was revoked, but I was punished... that is to say, I was reprimanded. There were two kinds of reprimands. -- I don't know which kind it was... any way, it was the more serous reprimand, and that reprimand was unto--d in the Party Court. Furthermore, the Gauleiter, on his own initiative, made a ruling which was grotesque even at that time. He ruled that I was to be prohibited, for three years, from taking employment in Party work.
Q.In the meantime you have received these documents from another quarter?
A.At that time, in 1935, the Gauleiter had actually threatened to have me taken into protective custody.
Apparently at the initiative of the agency for which the report had been made, those measures were not taken.
Q.That judgment by the Gau Party Court, did it exercise any influence on your future career?
A.Yes, it did, inasmuch as - to begin with - I did try to submit a now application to be taken over into the Internal Administration.
In that connection I had a talk with my superior at that time, and it was indicated to me that that was impossible as long as the penalty passed upon me by the Party was uphold.
Therefore, I was advised to wait until that penalty had been removed - or rather, I was advised to let a certain amount of time elapse.
I was told that for the moment an application would be hopeless.
Therefore, for the time being I remained as a legal adviser with the oberabschnitt at Chemnitz.
On the 1st of May 1936 I joined the SS formation of the SD.
There had been no application made, and there had been no formality.
I did not have to submit any particular documents - that is to say, I did not have to give any proof of my descent, or anything of the kind, and it was more than a year later whom I was already in Berlin that I had to submit curriculum vitae.
On the 1st of November... just a second - just a second.
.. 1936... In 1936 I came to the SD Main Office; I was transferred there again as a legal expert.
The SD Main Office was the predecessor of the later RSHA.
within the SD Main Office I was a member of the personnel Department, that is to say, I belonged to the so-called Central Department -- I believe it was Department one at the time.
That, again, was the predecessor of the later Department COURT II CASE IX One of the RSHA.
Q.Were you satisfied with the work you did in that office?
A.No, that work did not only not satisfy me - but at the RSHA and at the SD Main Office I never felt happy or at home. As I saw it, this was a different world, and according to my inner inclination as such, and according to my inner professional inclinations, I did not fit into that world. I was removed from the work of the other offices - I was isolated from it. I must say I was not interested in their work, either, and therefore I had no contact with them. I suffered greatly form the fact that my own professional plans had come to naught. I suffered from the continued obstacles which had been placed in the way of the career in the Administration service which I had planned for myself, I wanted to work in some administrative agency which was close to life and close to the people in order to now work in according with my inner inclinations. Again and again that opportunity was denied to me. Also, there were personal disappointments in the human field. As I have pointed out here, I tried again and again to leave that work.
Q.Did you take any serious steps before the war, or during the war, to leave that work?
AYes, I made continuous attempts to get out. I think I can say I started to make such attempts from the day I was transferred to Berlin, until the end.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWhen was the day that you were transferred to Berlin?
AThat was on the 1st of December, or the 1st of November, 1936, your Honor. I cannot tell you at the moment whether it was the 1st of December or the 1st of November 1936.
QLet's suppose it was December 1st, - taking the latest date 1936. why couldn't you have left on December 2, 1936?
AMr. President, that was connected with the proceedings against me, which had been instituted by the Party Court. I have already testified that immediately after the decision to exclude me from the Party had been revoked - and that happened in the late summer of 1936 - immediately at that time I went to see my superior - I went to Berlin.
QWell, now, just a second... We are going into those woods again. Now, you have this job, and you are very dissatisfied with the job - you are very unhappy. It is not your world, and all your great hopes have crashed at your feet. Now... why can't you leave?
AI could not leave because I saw no possibility to find a position which would have been in accordance with my professional inclinations, that is, to join the Administrative service. I had planned to enter a career in the government Administration, and that had become impossible.
QWell, despite your great unhappiness in this world, you found this world better than any other world that you could migrate to... is that right?
ANo, your Honor, I don't understand that.
QAll right. You are working in the SD... is that right... in December 1936?
AYes.
QRight. And you are very dissatisfied... is that right?
AYes.
QAnd you are very depressed and melancholic, that your dreams Court No. II, Case No. IX.
have turned to ashes... is that right?
AYes.
QRight. Well... why didn't you leave... this world which is so cold and bleak... namely, the SD?
AMr. President, I believe there is a misunderstanding. I could not leave.
QWhy -- Now tell me why you couldn't leave. That is what I want to know!
ABecause I had no possibility of finding a position which would have been in accordance with the aim I had set for myself.
QYes... yes... so you were not bound to this job in any way-officially or physically, you were free to leave if you chose to leave, weren't you?
AWell -- well-- I had been given assurance that as soon as a job, or an opportunity, for me to transfer to the Administrative career offered itself, no difficulties would be put in my way. That is what I had been told.
QWell, you weren't under any military orders which prevented you from leaving, were you? Were you?
AMr. President, I believe-
QWell, answer that question!
AIt wasn't as if I could have left that job -- as if I could have run away form it just any old day.
QWell, was there anything which prevented you from serving notice that you were dissatisfied and unhappy in this work, and that you desired to leave, and on a certain day take your hat and walk out. was there anything which prevented you form during that?
ANo... that isn't how it was. No... that wasn't how it was! I couldn't have left just any day.
QWhy couldn't you leave? Why couldn't you leave? Now, please answer that question. Why couldn't you leave, since you were so unhappy there? Did your bosssay that you couldn't leave?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
ANo; this is how it was... Immediately after the decision to exclude me from the Party had been revoked I asked, and I made efforts, to find out whether the way was open for me now to enter the Administrative career. I was told that there was a little hope -- in fact, I was told that there was no hope. I was told to put these wishes aside until the penalty and so forth had been wiped out. Therefore, I remained in my work at the RSHA.
QWare you under military orders at the RSHA in 1936 and 1937?
AWell, if I may put it this way... well, of course, I couldn't simply leave... I couldn't leave the RSHA any old day; for that, I had to receive that approval of the chief of the RSHA.
QDid you make a request for the approval to leave?
AI submitted several applications... I made several requests, but at that time, in 1936, at the very beginning, I did not submit a further request, but it was barbed at the stage of the preliminary discussions which I had with the head of the Central Department One - at that time Oberfuehrer Brigadefuehrer Albert - who indicated to me that at this moment there was no point in making further application.
QWere you under military orders in the RSHA in 1936 and 1937?
AWell, I was under military orders in the sense that I belonged to the SS formation SD, and that without the approval or the consent of the chief of the formation or of the chief of my agency I could not leave the Service.
QYou say that you spoke about leaving the service with your superior, and he told you that there was no point in making your request then Did you make a request later, when there would be a point in making it?
AI made another request, and I submitted that request a few years later. That was when my penalty was wiped out. At that time I made a regular application, and I was then transferred to the Internal Administration. That application was made, as far as I remember, either at the beginning of 1939 or at the end of 1938.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Riediger, I am getting lost myself in the woods. So you better take the witness. BY DR. RIEDIGER:
QDr. Haensch, after the outbreak of war, did you make any attempts to get to the front, if possible, and thus to get out of the RSHA?
AWhat happened was that we had the wish... most of us had the wish... at the outbreak of war, to do our duty to our Fatherland; and, just as a friend of mine named Krueger - I told my superiors that I had that wish. It was cut of the question for that wish to be fulfilled. And the chief of the office at that time - Best, as well as Heydrich both, with great determination, refused all such applications. All of us were given an endorsement in our Army pass in 1939, to the effect that in the event of war the chief of the Security police and the SD would be our superior, we would be subordinate to him, and we would have to obey his orders. Heydrich, -- and I know that because I was an expert on disciplinary matters -- went as far as instituting disciplinary proceedings, or rather, threatened to institute disciplinary proceedings against officials or employees of the Security Police and the SD if they approached him with such request. He demanded that from the point of view of total war, everybody was to remain at the post at which he had been placed.
QDid you, in the course of the war, try to get the position of a leader of an Einsatz squad?
AI never tried to get the position of a leader of an Einsatzkommando.
QWhen did you come to know that you had been appointed leader of the Einsatzkommando 4-b, or rather, that you were intended to be given that position... and how did you hear it?
AAs far as I remember it was at the end of January, or the middle of January 1942, that I heard of it. I remember that exactly because in November or December my mother was dangerously ill. At that Court No. II, Case No. IX.
time, and in the first days of January, I went to see her and I stayed with her for about a fortnight in Hirschfelde. When I came back from my visit to her, the chief of office -- it was Streckenbach at that time -told me over the telephone that I had been appointed leader of a special kommando in the East.
QWas that in accordance with your own wish?
ANo, it was not; and, above, all, it was not in accordance with my wish at that particular moment. At that time I had again been making special efforts to leave my work. BY THE PRESIDENT:
QDid you ever get a job which pleased you. Every job you mentioned so far made you very unhappy. Now, you joined the NSDAP, quite willingly, enthusiastically - you wanted to serve this ideology... yet every job you got made you unhappy. Now, can you tell us one job you got because of your association with the NSDAP which left you tranquil, and at peace with your mind, and with the world?
AMr. President, I never obtained any position in connection with my membership in the NSDAP.
QWell, did you ever have any job in your life... let us make it broad... did you ever have any job which you liked? Now, tell us that!
AYes.
QNow, what job was that?
AWell, first -- I was greatly stimulated and satisfied with the administrative work I did in Doebeln; and I was particularly satisfied -and in spite of the serious situation, I was happy in the position which later on I obtained in the Administration with the Reich Delegation in Denmark. And that, too, was purely administrative-
QGive us the year. Now, in Doebeln, when were you there?
AI was in Doebeln in 1935.
QFor how long?
AI was there from February to July.
QFrom February to July 1935, in Doebeln.
AYes, in 1935, your Honor.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
QAll right. And then when were you in Denmark?
AThat was in 1943.
QHow long?
AUntil the end of the war.
Q 1943 to 1945.
AYes.
QWell, then those were two periods in your life -- five months in 1935, and two years, from 1943 to 1945, that you were happy with your work?
AYes. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:All right. Proceed, Dr. Riediger.
BY DR. REIDIGER:
QWhen you were informed about your appointment, what steps did you take. and what did you know at the time about functions of the Einsatzkommandos?
AUntil that time I know nothing beyond the fact that formations of the Security Police and of the SD, and sofar as I know the military units were with the troops in the East. As for details about their functions and their task, I know nothing of those.
QDo You know the reports of the RSHA or the Einsatzkommandos, did you know of those during the time that you were working for the RSHA?
ANo, I didn't. Those reports on the events, and those reports from the Last I didn't know; as I gather from the documents here the various and sections of this one didn't receive of those reports.
QDid anybody, or who in Berlin informed you about the purpose of the Einsatzgruppen?
AAfter I had been informed over the telephone by Strenckenbach that I was to be sent to a commando in the East, I immediately asked him to see me and talk to me. Once again I must mention briefly that at the time the order to go to the East was in no way opportune, for in the meantime I had tried somehow or other another agency to achieve to be requested by another unit to go to the front, as I had come to realize that that was an opportunity for getting out of the RSHA.
The only possibility, in fact, was if another agency asked for me which was strong enough to support such a request.
At that time, I think in December 1941, among other things, I could on my colleague Six, and asked him to let me know as such as he heard of anything to the effect that some other agency needed an administrative official. in the same way friends of mine were making attempts through other means to help me to find a way of getting out of the RSHA.
To clarify this point as to why I was not feeling happy, and as to why I think I could not have felt happy in my work, perhaps I may make the following statement: I believe every referendar works as and official and defense counsel had more freedom or actions; more freedom in organization than I had, for the work of an expert on disciplinary matters of the RSHA was that of power-investigating activities, I had no authority to make any decisions.
QYou have testified that you had discussed the matter with Streckenbach, and I am now asking you what he told you about the work that you would have to do with the special commando.
Now what was it that Streckenbach told you?
ADuring our short discussion when I called on him, Streckenbach told me that the task of a commando involved authority at the front and it was to protect fighting troops in the front area, and the word was spoken there, and it was repeated to me at later time, by Heydrich Streckenbach said that the commando was part of the Army.
He said that I myself would always have to have my headquaters at a place where the Army had its headquarters. The work of a commando as such, so he told me, was based on decrees and orders received from the Army to the Einsatzgruppe. He told me that those orders had to be obeyed, and that I was to see to it that those orders were obeyed. As such orders were a novel to me, I asked Streckenbach in the course of our talk for further information. Above all, I asked him whether he wanted of our talk for further information.
Above all, I asked him whether he wanted me to take this position as a permanent position. I had a vague person pointed out, told me about the dangerous elements which threatened the German troops in the Last from the Partisans. He said it was the task of the kommando to deal with such saboteurs, and obstructionists and partisans, and were to deal with them jointly with the Army, and to contact activities.
Streckenbach pointed out to me that the executive work of the kommando was in the hands of experts, that is to say, experts trained of the men of the Gestapo and of the Crinimal Police. At the express instructions of Heydrich he drew attention to the fact that I was to stay in the East for a short time, and at the upmost three months. That therefore I was to leave things as they had been, and that I was to handle them as they had been handled up to then. Strechenbach also drew my attention to the fact that in particular, in case of executive decisions I was to rely on the investigations of the experts who had the necessary experience in the Last. In connection with my work as to disciplinary matters, Streckenbach also pointed out to me that in the Last the fight against the illegal elements and to fight against the saboteurs and obstructionists, formal court proceedings such as we were accustomed to carrying out in the Homeland, in the police courts, or another courts, didn't exist in the East, but that a decree by the highest neutral authority, that is, by the OKA, that by that decree matters in the East had been settled in a different way; that the chiefs or chief of the executive department or kommandos and the Armies proceed in accordance with these decrees, or, rather the decrees by the highest political authorities.
Sofar as I recall that is what Streckenbach told me when I had my first talk with him, and during that talk I asked him for information, and, he particularly impressed on me that there was close contact, and that close contact had to be maintained with the Army authorities in question.
QDid you not with Streckenbach discuss the question of going somewhere also at the front, and why?
AThat at a later time. I talked to Streckenbach again, and the second time I went to see him it was very different. After our first talk, I heard the next day, that the chief of Einsatzgruppe-C was Thomas. There had been a considerable amount of tension between Thomas and myself before. He used to be the Oberabschnittsfuchrer in Wiesbaden -
anyhow, it was somewhere in the West, and in disciplinary matters, which had arisen, because in the agency there there had been tension of a certain unpleasantness.
He suggested to me openly to ask Streckenbach when I called on him again, after I had heard that Thomas was the chief and that I didn't like it, if it were possible to use me in some other Eisantzgruppen in Streckenbach's group. Streckenbach saud, no, that it could not be done, and it was taken that he told me that the SK-IV-B was destined to be for me by Heydrich. There had been special reasons. On the one hand my positions in the East was only to be held by me for a short time, and, it was to serve the purposes of acquainting myself with conditions in the East, and Streckenbach said particularly in my position as an expert in disciplinary matters, as for that time I had to deal with the disciplinary matters only, and as I was to stay there only a short time things were to be left as they were.
In particular in the executive sphere, and in the case of SK-IV-B, it was easy to proceed in that way, because there the higher officials were already installed as chief of the executive department.
QThen was it that you left for the East to join the SK-IV-B.
ASofar as I remember I left for the East during the last days of February, in 1942. It was either on the last day of February, or the day before the last day.
QPrior to your departure, did you talk only with Streckenbach, or also with Heydrich, or any of the other gentlemen, and if so, what were you told about your job?
AWell, it was Streckenbach alone who at the end of January told me I was to go to the East, and he added that my written marching orders would be sent to me later. For the moment I was to continue in my old job. My predescessor was on leave, and during this time at Heydrich's request, he was to return to the commando.
I only got an opportunity to talk to Heydrich when I reported my departure to him, and that was when I received my marching orders, and, sofar as I remember it was only a week or ten days before I left that I received my marching orders.
QNow, I was interested in hearing what Heydrich told you about your work in SK-IV-B?
AEssentially, Heydrich told me the same that Streckenbach had already told me. He emphasized the fact that I was to deal with the job of front security. That it was the Army which was in command, and that orders and decrees from who Army to the Einsatzgruppe had to be obeyed; that those orders and decrees had to be carried out exactly, and at that point Heydrich made particular refrence to the activities of bands of organized resistance, and he mentioned the dagers which threatened the German troops. In his usual brief manner he told me of the urgency where lives of every German soldier needed special protection, and that I was always to remain conscious of the fact that in such situation the lives of fathers of German families and and the lives of the German men were at stake. He also told me - I can not at the moment fully recall, but he drew my attention to the wartime laws; he told me about the laws which I would get from the Army, and, he told me that the orders would have to be obeyed. He told me he was to receive no complaint; if I didn't obey orders, he said, that I need not tell you as an expert in disciplinary matters, that you just like every soldier at the front were subject to the laws of war, and that any delay or any dereliction of duty is subject to heavy penalty. That is substantially what Heydrich told me.
QAnd did you go anywhere to report your departure?
AYes, I just remembered it, Heudrich said with reference to the Executive field that I was not to make any change, and I was to rely on the findings in that connection, he said, by just call on Karl Mueller. I never had anything to don with Mueller, as Chief of Department I, and I would have no reason to report my departure to him Now, I did go Mueller who received me, just by the door of his office, the door that led from the anti-chambre to the main office.
He just spoke a few brief words to me. He was rather rude. I thought that he didn't like the idea that as an expert in disciplinary matters was sent up there, for he said something to the effect that it was his officials, men who has been trained by him who worked out there, and they were all men who had the necessary expert knowledge.
QYou said that you left Berlin for the East at the end of February. When was it that you arrived at SK-IV-B?
ASofar as I remember the only earliest stage when I could have arrived was 15th of March. what happened was - - - - - I didn't go by myself.