QThese then, are all the corrections and explanations that you have to make concerning this affidavit?
AThere is another mistake in writing which I think might have been corrected by now. In the last but one sentence in paragraph 2 it says "I was appointed Ohlendorf's adjutant for the Einsatzgruppe and I kept this post from my joining the group until I left in 1944". I think that must have been a mistake. I think that has been corrected by the prosecutor. It should have said '42.
QI think that is only in the German copy. It should read June, 142.
AYes.
QAny more corrections?
AI might add on explanation concerning Figure 6 of the affidavit where it says in the last sentence "it is known to me that it was of special importance for Ohlendorf that people who were shot were killed in a humane and military manner as in case other methods of killing were used the psychological burden of the members of the kommando would have been too heavy." I was very sorry that this is the last sentence of this particular passage, but I could not very well tell Mr. Wartenberg what he should put in and what he should leave out, but in my interrogation I tried to explain that this psychological burden was not only the particular burden of the kommando itself but that each victim, of course, would have a much heavier burden, and that is what I would like to say here; and I think that with this all matters are now cleared up which I wanted to be cleared up.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
QNow, witness, you consider yourself an educated man, don't you?
AYour Honor, one should not say that of one's self. But I think that I have an average education.
QWell, you had your schooling; you worked in a lawyer's office; you were a civil servant; you worked for the Reich; and you belonged to the Hitler Youth. I don't know that that would be any evidence of great education but at any rate -- how old are you?
AI am now thirty-three years old.
QThirty-three years old? How old were you when you signed this affidavit?
AThirty-two, Your Honor.
QYes. Now you signed three times on this document, didn't you? you signed your name three times?
AI don't quite understand, Your Honor.
QYou signed your name to each sheet of the affidavit?
AYes, I put my initials on each sheet, each page,
QYou know you actually wrote your name, you wrote "H. Schubert" at the end of the first sheet, "H. Schubert" at the end of the second sheet; and then at the end of the third sheet you let yourself out completely and signed "Heinz Hermann Schubert", didn't you?
AYour Honor, if you tell me this now, of course I believe it, but I had not actually remembered whether I had actually only initialed it as, for instance, I initialed the corrections, or whether I signed my full name.
QYou have it there before you. You are looking at the same thing I am looking at and you signed this all three different occasions, didn't you?
AYour Honor, I do not have the actual copy in front of me, only the cyclostyled copy, and the initials are not contained there.
I cannot see from the cyclostyle copy, how I have signed it.
QDid you or did you not - tell us, did you not sign on each sheet of the affidavit?
AYes, Your Honor.
QNow, as an educated person, would you sign your signature three different times to a paper which in itself was misleading?
AYour Honor, again I must come back to the statement that Mr. Wartenberg made to me when he said that ii would be able to correct these matters and explain matters when the time came that these matters were actually to be used.
He never said that these affidavits were to be used, but if they were to be used I could make the corrections, and I think that this promise given to me I could make use of, and I thought that I used all the possibilities that were at the time given to me.
I am saying openly and honestly, I did not feel well in giving my signature to a document to which I did not fully agree, but I thought -
QThis document contained the word "supervise" at least seven different times. Didn't it occur to you as an educated man that it would be highly misleading to have this word appear seven different times if it did not convey the actual picture of what occurred?
AOf course that struck me, Your Honor, and on repeated occasions I asked Mr. Wertenberg whether I would be able to change it, but I was not permitted to do so, but only the promise was made to me that "you will have the opportunity to explain this". He saw no difference in what I meant when I said "inspect" or "look at" and his own "supervision". He said that was quibbling for words and he thought it was exactly the same thing "supervise" and "look at".
QI am going to show you the photostat of your original signature and the original affidavit. I would like to have you tell the Tribunal whether you yourself wrote in the word "December" in paragraph 3?
AYes, Your Honor, that is my own correction.
QAnd did you yourself write on the left-hand side the word "handwritten" or did you write your initials to the left of that correction?
AYes, Your Honor.
QAnd did you sign each sheet of that affidavit?
A your Honor, this confirms my suspicion which I expressed just able few minutes ago.
QPlease answer the question, did you sign each sheet of that affidavit?
AYes, but not with my full name, but as I assumed only my initials, "H. Schu". Your Honor thought I had signed "H. Schubert". Only on this last page it gives my full name.
QYou make a difference from "Sch" and Schubert? You make a big difference between those two?
ANo, I make no distinction, Your Honor, I only....
Q you used the phrase, "this confirmed my suspicion." Whom were you suspecting:
yourself? It is your own signature. Did you assume that someone else wrote the "Sch"?
AIf I made a distinction at all, Your Honor, it was only in order to explain that my recollection was correct.
I only wanted to establish this fact now according to my own recollection and memory.
QVery well, since your recollection is so vivid, now will you tell us why, when you had the pen in your hand and made the correction in the date.
why on the very next line only two inches away you didn't correct the word "supervise"?
AYour Honor, I was not permitted to make this correction.
QNow, you tell us just how you were not permitted. Did Mr. Wartenberg stand over you with a weapon; did he threaten you with his first; did he have you under duress; did he menace you in any way?
AMr. President
QYou said you were not permitted. Now, explain what you mean by you were not permitted.
AI have already said, your Honor, I could only make those corrections which I was permitted to make by Mr. Wartenberg there, but I asked for the change of other words he did not permit me.
QDid you say to him in this affidavit, the word "supervise" is used repeatedly and I did not supervise an execution and therefore I insist that this word be changed.
Did you tell him some think like that?
AI am absolutely certain, your Honor , that I did, and on various occasions too.
QYes, and yet in spit of that you signed the affidavit?
ABecause I did not think I could make any corrections without the permission of Mr. Wartenberg because he had prohibited me to do so.
QWhy didn't you then refuse to sign the affidavit, drop the pen, "I will not sign this affidavit because it is misleading", why didn't you do that?
AYour Honor, I must now say what I do not like to say very much. I was in a physical and in a mental condition which did not allow me to resist Mr. Wertenberg very long and very much.
QWell, if your physical condition was Such that it impeded your actions, it was less of an effort not to Sign than to sign?
AYour Honor, I do not know whether it would have been the right thing to refuse to sign it. It seems now that it would have been better to do see but I thought after I had resisted for so long and refused to be content, now with the promises of Mr. Wartenberg and apart from that-
QDid you ever once say to him, "Mr. Wartenberg, I refuse to sign this paper", once, did you ever say that to him?
AYes,Your Honor referring to the change of the date; when I had to confirm that the wording of the affidavit of the 24th had been changed, I told Mr. Wartenberg that I would not be willing to sign that, and this is how I explain the actual change that was then made and which I was permitted to make.
QNow you are going back to that date which I have indicated, you have told us, which we understands, and which is a closed book--You insist on the change of date made; you initialed it, Now, I ask you, leaving aside the date, did you say to Mr. Wartenberg, "I refuse to sign this statement again; but I would like to add now, Your Honor, that immediately after the interrogation of the 18th of February I was taken into a severe custody, and on the 31st of February as well as on the 24th I did not feel myself free in my own will and physically as well as psychologically I was not in the position to resist any further, I was not in the position to go any further than I had already gone, and I thought that I had achieved all that could be done in this situation. I was put into solitary confinement. I was not allowed to go for walks I was put into an unheated cell and that in February. I could not leave the cell even to get my food, The food was brought into my cell. My cell was lit up from outside as at that time it was only usual in the case of defendants, although I at that time was not a defendants, There was, therefore, a difference between my custody as it had been until then. A difference like day and night; my state of health physically was very bad.
I was 26 percent underweight, and I was not in the position-
QDid Mr. Wartenberg have to do anything with what you have just now related?
AYour Honor, Mr. Wartenberg was asked by my defense counsel here when he was in the witness box under cross examination concerning these matters and, if I remember correctly, he has stated that he had then been under the impression that I was thinking of committing suicide, based on the statements which I had made previously and that it was possible that owing to the statement that he had made to the prison office that therefore I was taken into more severe custody. This statement of Mr. Wartenberg's I cannot bring into agreement with the usual habits in such cases in the prison office.
QWell, Witness, are you trying to indicate that you were subjected to what you regard as hardships in order to make you sign an affidavit which contained statements not in accordance with the facts, is that the point which you are trying to make?
AThat I should sign an affidavit which did not correspond to the facts?
QWell, you have enumerated the various hardships which you underwent, and I presume it is only with regard to the affidavit that you tell us about these hardships. Now, do you want to argue or state that you were subjected to this confinement and the other hardships which you have enumerated in order to make you sign an affidavit which did not conform to facts?
AYour Honor, I do not know the reason and the purpose of this particular measure, but I could only regard it as pressure because this more severe custody was immediately relieved after I had signed the affidavit, therefore, this is the only conclusion that I am in a position to draw.
QDid you say to Mr. Wartenberg, "If I sign this paper, will I be released from solitary confinement or did be indicate to you that if you signed it you would be released from confinement?
AYour Honor, and if I had been threatened with death, such question I would never put to my victors. I think I would be too proud to do that.
QWell, were you too proud to sign this statement, "I had the opportunity to make changes and corrections in the above statement. I Made this statement of my own free will without any promise of reward, and I was not subjected to any threat or dress what so ever." Was it because of magnanimity of soul which caused you to sign your name to a statement of that kind when, according to what you tell us now, it does not represent the fact--was that just magnanimity on your part toward your victor, as you call it?
AYour Honor, I may perhaps express it to the following effect. This formulation I signed because it was not exactly incorrect to a certain degree, but as I had no possibilities to make any modifying remarks or make any supplementary notes which would not have been received.....
QBut let us just see just how much what you have told in court today differs from what you said in the affidavit. You said that you did not supervise, you only had to see that it was done.
AYour Honor, I cannot agree to this kind of interpretation. It is again--it is said that I had to see to it that it was done. That is again not quite correct.
QDid you, or did you not say that? That is what I have in my notes. Did you say that this afternoon?
AWhat Your Honor just said and what has been translated, certainly not.
QYou were sent there by Ohlendorf, is that right?
AYes, Your Honor.
QWell, let us suppose that when you arrived you found that the execution was not being conducted in the manner ordered by Ohlendorf; you would have spoken to the officer in charge, wouldn't you?
AYes, Immediately. I may say that General Ohlendorf himself and Dr. Braune inspected the execution on that very day. I would have had enough opportunity to express my misgivings even if the superior officer had not been of my opinion or had not shared my misgivings.
QLet us suppose that the scene of the execution was laid in the middle of the city in a square--in the public square--you would have immediately informed the officer in charge that this was not in accordance with Ohlendorf's orders, wouldn't you?
AIn this case, I would have had to do so, Your Honor, because it was well-known that the exeuction place should not have been inside the town but 20 kilometers outside the town.
QLet us suppose that some of the SS men had taken some of the valuables and pocketed them instead of turning them over to Einsatzgruppe D. You would have informed the officer there that this was contrary to Herr Ohlendorf's orders?
AI should have tried that first, Yes, and if it had come to my notice that this officer was not using his authority to prevent such matters, then I would have had to report this incident to Herr Ohlendorf.
QLet us suppose instead of using submachine guns and rifles you came upon an officer who was about to use hand grandes to execute the victims. You would have immediately called it to the attention of Ohlendorf that this was contrary to orders?
AIf that had happened, certainly, Your Honor.
QSo that in fact you were there to see to it that the executions were carried out in accordance with the orders issued by the chief of the Einsatzgruppe D?
AWhether it was carried out like that according to orders, but that they were actually carried out, I don't know, and I had no influence on that for this the presponsible person was an officer holding the rank of a major who was responsible for everything and who had all the authority. I was not responsible for the action, execution, I was only to find out about the manner in which it was to be carried out, but I had no influence on whether it was actually carried out, but only to see how it was carried out.
QAnd to indicate to the officer in charge of the execution squad that he was going astray in the event he was not following the orders of Ohlendorf?
AThat I would have had to do in any case, and I think everybody else would have done that without a corresponding order if he had found out about incidents of that kind. That, of course, was his duty without any special order.
THE PRESIDENT:The court will recess for 15 minutes.
DR. KOESSL:Your Honor, just one little question before the recess.
THE PRESIDENT:Certainly, even a big question.
BY DR. KOESSL:
QWitness, were you ever threatened by Mr. Wartenberg?
AYes, and I am perfectly aware of the fact that Mr. Wartenberg the question to this effect by my defense counsel which was "whether he had threatened me with a broomstick in Oberursel on one occasion", in the negative.
I can say, under oath, that I can give an affirmative answer to this question because such a threat actually took place.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
QWhen was that?
AThat was during the time when I was in the interrogation center in Oberursel.
QWhen as that--the date?
AYour Honor, I can only give the approximate period between October and December '45.
I don't know what month--which of the three months.
QWas it at least a year and a half prior to the time you signed the affidavit--wasn't it?
AYes, Your Honor.
QDo you want to tell us now that for a year and a half you were in fear of a broomstick and signed it just because of that recollection of a year and a half previously?
AYour Honor, it wasn't the broomstick, but the fact that suddenly when I was taken into the interrogation room I was confronted with the very same person.
QWith the very same broomstick?
ANo, it wasn't the broomstick, Your Honor, but the incidents or the events of October or December 1945 were clearly in front of me at that very moment when I was led in and in the meantime until I had arrived here I had found out about incidents and happenings which made me afraid of the worst--of the methods of interrogation, and I was certainly realizing again all these methods; I cannot say that it was not exactly fear, but I had a psychological reaction, and I thought I might be exposed to such extreme measures of interrogation again.
I had not by any means forgotten the incident of Oberursel, and I am prepared to give details about this event, if the president wants me to do so,then he is a stronger character than I am, at least, stronger in his resistance. I was no longer in the possession of my full strength, otherwise, I would have resisted again, and if I may emphasize this again, it was my express intention to change all those passages--wrong statements which indicted other people. As far as my own person was concerned, I trusted that I would be able to explain myself if these things would be used against me. Perhaps that was wrong of me to do so, but I cannot find any other explanation for it.
THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.
THE KOESSL:I would like to continue?
THE PRESIDENT:All right, Dr. Koessl.
BY DR. KOESSL:
QWitness, did you receive any distinction during your assignment in Russia?
ADuring my assignment in Russia I received the Iron Cross second class; the corresponding Rumanian distinction, which is about the same as the Iron Cross, and also rememberance distinctions.
I received the German Winter Medallion for the Eastern campaign.
I received the Rumanian Medallion for this winter campaign as well the so-called distinction Cruisade (Kreuzzug) against Russia.
I also received the Crimea distinction.
And those other distinctions and commemorative medals which I received during my assignment in Russia.
Insofar as the Iron Cross is concerned, and the Rumanian distinction, they were rewards for bravery, they were awarded for bravery on the front with the enemy.
All the others are merely commemorative medals which everybody received who was in Russia during that period.
It was merely required to have been there at certain periods.
QDid all the members of the Wehrmacht, or the Navy, or the Airforce receive the same medals on the same occasions?
AYes, they were medallions of the German Wehrmacht; they were not SS or Einsatzgruppe medals or distinctions but were awarded throughout the entire German Wehrmacht.
QWhen did you finish with your assignment of the East?
AI concluded my assignment in the East when I was recalled, if I remember correctly, on 6th or 8th of July 1942.
I flew at the time together with Herr Ohlendorf and returned to Berlin.
QWhat did you do during the following time in the SD?
AFirst of all I remained adjutant of Herr Ohlendorf at this time in my capacity as Office Chief III in the Reich Security Main office.
This position I retained until about the beginning of October 1943.
At that time office I to which I had belonged until then transferred me to office III, and I was put into the auxiliary position as an assistant, and in Group III-B of the Reich Security Main Office I Worked in the manner I have already explained this morning.
QWhy were you transferred to Office III?
AThere were several reasons for this: private reasons as well as official reasons, but they occurred at the same time.
About this time, about the end of September 1943, the Fuehrer Degree was issued, which said that the position of adjutant was only to be held by persons who were commanding generals and the highest officers.
I, therefore, had to get a new job because of this Fuehrer Order.
Also in the mean time I had remarried and Herr Ohlendorf on his own initiative was prepared to spare me from working every evening until late night.
QWhat did you do in Group III-B?
AIn the Group III-B I was an Auxiliary Referent III-BS. That is what this Auxiliary Department was called, In this work, according to instructions by my group chief, I had to deal with the internal personnel matters of the group.
That was because of my knowledge which I had obtained in Office-I, and as personnel expert I dealt with orders, transfers, or T/O Office Ratings, according to the instruc tions of my chief.
I had to supervise the filing and registration departments of this group.
QHow long did you stay in this office?
AI remained in this office until 30 November 1944. With affect from 1 September 1944 the Reich Security Main Office transferred me to Augsburg.
QWhat were your tasks in the SD Sector of Augsburg?
AIn the SD Sector of Augsburg I was put in charge of Department III-B. That is a department where the domestic sphere problems concerning Ethnic Germans and National Health were dealt with.
This work in the SD-Sector Augsburg had to be reorganized right from the start, because the office of the SD Sector of Augsburg in August 1945 had been suspended. Therefore, at first I had to deal with organizing mostly in the internal construction. And when the machinery had finally started working I made reports to the Reich Security Main Office, and the local offices of the Gau District of Schwaben. I did this work until the collapse, exactly until 26 April 1945, when the office owing to the arrival of American troops was dissolved.
QWhile belonging to the SD, did you ever receive any police training?
ANeither during my membership in the SD nor at any other time did I receive any police training.
QWere you ever active in the executive? I don't want you to think of the Russian assignment now?
AAt no front was I ever active in any executive.
QDuring your work in the SD, in office I and Office III, did you ever have to deal with Jewish questions?
ANo, never.
QDid you know about the event of 9 and 10 November 1938?
AOf course, I knew as much as any other German on the average, at the time, and could have had according to publications and announcements in the newspapers and the radio. At no time as a SD member did I hear anything about this officially. May I add here that at the time of these events, when they occurred, I myself was not in the service, but that afterwards I heard nothing further about this in my official capacity. I had nothing to do with such matters.
QBut you heard about the work of the Einsatzgruppen?
AYes, of course I had.
QWhy did you not leave the SD then?
AOn principle I would like to say that according to my definite convictions, according to what I had heard during the many years of my membership, it was impossible to resign from the SD, but every SD member came under military law, and, therefore, could not get out.
May I point here again that even for very important personal reasons when presented in such applications were refused; as it happened to me when stating that I had lost my wife and child I asked that I no longer be deferred, that even such an application was refused.
May I just add something about this.
I believe that I am fully convinced that from the knowledge of the work of the Einsatzgruppe, which I heard during my time I could not draw the conclusion that these tasks of the Einsatzgruppe in Russia could in any way have had anything to do with the tasks of the organization of the State Police, or the Criminal Police, or the SD, even.
Never did I hear of any orders which the Offices III, IV, V, VI, or VII of the RSHA issued concerning the treatment of Jews.
I do not know of any such orders. I merely know that the Fuehrer Order as exclusively applied at the time.
I heard nothing else in the Territory Barbarossa, that is, the operation al territory in Russia.
Reasonably, therefore, from this work I could not tell my superiors that I intended to leave this organization for that reason, because the tasks had nothing to do with such matters;and, if one should formulate this theoretically now, a member of the SD or the State Police, or the Criminal Police should have been satis fied, if he could resume his former work within the SD, but in particular in the SD he could never expect that as part of the tasks of this organization that he would ever have to carry out any such tasks.
QDo you know that members of the SD took part in the occurrences on the border shortly before the Police campaign?
ANo, I don't know that. I merely heard about this later as part of the announcements and the publications in the IMT Trial.
THE PRESIDENT:Are you referring, Dr. Koessl, to the radio station incidents?
DR. KOESSL: Yes, I was thinking of the attack on the Gleiwitz transmitter which was considered in the IMT judgment, and for which a number of SD people were made responsible.
I now want to ask the witness about this, of what he heard about such things.
BY DR. KOESSL:
QApart from your Russian assignment were you ever active in any occupied territories, or did you take part in any such work?
ANo, at no time.
QDid you know that the SD arrested civilians of occupied territories and kept them prisoners under inhumane conditions?
ANo, during my time of service I heard never anything of the kind.
QDid you, during that time of your work, ever hear that the SD, or the SD members carried out interrogations of the third degree, as they were called?
ANo. This expression "interrogations of the third degree" I only heard of after having had contact with offices of the American Army.
I had never heard of that before. I did not know what it was.
QDo you know that Office III or members of the SD took part in the shootings of hostages?
ANo, I never heard about that.
QDid you know whether Office III or any members of SD took part in measures of this so-called Summary Special Treatment?
AI would like to say here that I know the expression "summary special treatment" means nothing to me, and I can not imagine what it means, that I never heard about anything of that kind.
THE PRESIDENT:You don't say you don't know now what it means, do you?
THE WITNESS:Your Honor, this was part of the IMT verdict against the SD, and that is where I heard this expression "Summary Special Treatment", and that is the only knowledge I have of this.
THE PRESIDENT:I understood you to say that you don't know even today what it means?
THE WITNESS:I surely don't know now what it means. I only know it was contained in the IMT verdict, but I don't know what it means today.
THE PRESIDENT:You don't know what is meant by the phrase "Special Treatment"?
THE WITNESS:The expression "Special Treatment"? I think that during the trial I have understood what this means.
THE PRESIDENT:You know "Special Treatment" means liquidation. You know that, don't you?
DR. KOESSL:Your Honor, I didn't ask about "Special Treatment". But about "Summary Special Procedure". Special Summary Procedure.
THE PRESIDENT:Oh, well, that is different. Then you are asking about Summary Procedure?
DR. KOESSL:Yes, procedure.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
BY DR. KOESSL:
QWhat do you know about the so-called "Night and Fog Decree" and the "Kugel Decree"?
AAt the time when I think I was in the camp Darmstadt, I heard these expressions for the first time.
I actually had never heard of it until then.
In the Camp Darmstadt it was part of the radio broadcast of the trial here in Nurnberg.
QAnd do you know, or did you whether the SD took part in the confiscation of property in the occupied territories?
AI have already said that I was in no other occupied territories, and I did not work there, and I don't know anything about matters or orders which contained such kind of work done by the SD in occupied territories.
QDid you know whether the SD took part in Forced Labor Programs?
ANo, I knew nothing about that.
QDo you know about the so-called "Commando Order"?
ANeither.
QDid you know the so-called "Lynch Order" against Allied Airmen?
ASuch an order was never made known to me. I never heard about it, in fact.
QAfter the end of the war, did you undertake anything in order to avoid punishment?
AI believe I have done the contrary, if I may explain this briefly. originally I was in French captivity, and I then asked the French Captain to transfer me to the Americans if the territory occupied by the French would be handed over to the Americans. This was the territory of Oberallgau in the Alps. I also pointed out that I had heard the announcement of the American Army according to which every officer NCO and enlisted man who had served in any part of the NSDAP was to remain where he was until further decisions had been made concerning such people. I, therefore, had to expect that the Americans in Augsburg would look for me, and, I, therefore, asked to have me handed over to the American authorities, so that I could assume the responsibility for my work there. I think that I considered that I owed it to those persons in Augsburg who worked under me, and who might be interrogated by the Americans. I want to assume responsibility for my work and did not want to keep anything a secret.
DR. KOESSL:I have no further questions, thank you.
THE PRESIDENT:Any defense counsel desire to cross examine the witness? If not, Mr. Walton will proceed with the Prosecution's cross examination CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. WALTON: