Q Did you know of the conditions in the concentration camps?
A.I knew nothing of those conditions.
QWas the Fuehrer Headquarters informed of these conditions or were they discussed?
AIn the Fuehrer Headquarters I heard nothing about conditions in concentration camps. It was never discussed.
QWas the question of the annihilation of Jews discussed?
ANo, it was not.
QNot even in camp discussions?
ANo, not there either. Never were these matters talked about in my presence.
QDid anyone else mention anything, for instance Himmler?
AHimmler never mentioned anything. I simply heard, while I was in prison, that people who had spoken to Himmler on this matter had been told by him.
QThat what you heard was not true?
AThat is false. I myself did not speak to Himmler on this matter.
QDid you know how many concentration camps there were?
AEveryone knew that the camps existed, but not that so many existed. Mauthausen, Buchenwald -- it was only after the war that one found out about these camps and one read it in the paper. I knew of the camp of Dachau because I happen to come from Bavaria.
QDid you ever hear of the cruelties that took place there?
ANo, just last year for the first time. When I took my leave of the Reichsmarshal in the middle of March, 1945, the Reichsmarshal told me at lunch that many Jews must have died and that they would have to pay for that. It was in that way that I heard of any crimes against the Jews.
DR. STAHMER:I have no further questions. I can now turn over the witness to the other Defense Counsel and the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT:Do any Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions of this witness?
BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW):
QI have only a faw questions.
Witness, in your capacity as liaison officer of the High Command and the Luftwaffe, you took part in the camp discussions in the Fuehrer Headquarters.
Did you also take part in camp discussions when front line commanders were making their reports to Hitler?
AAt such discussions I did not personally take part. I was, however, present at two discussions in adjoining rooms, once when Field Marshall von Kleist was there for a conference, and the second time when the leader of the Crimea Army was present. After the evacuation of the Crimea, the leader of the Crimea Army was there for a conference, I was not actually present at those conferences, but I heard it in the adjoining room because people were speaking loudly.
I heard that there were differences of opinion between Hitler and the commanders in question. I can say no more on that.
QDid you hear enough that you could got the general gist of these conferences?
ANo, I could not follow the general course of their discussion. I do not know their content.
DR. LATERNSER:I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Do any other Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions?
Then, does the Prosecuting Counsel wish to ask any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
QMay it please the Tribunal: You are at the present time a prisoner of war of the United States?
AI beg your pardon. Could, you please repeat the question. I didn't understand the question.
QYou are at the present time a prisoner of war of the United States?
AAt the present time I am a prisoner of war of the United States.
QYou have been interrogated on a number of occasions by representatives of the United States?
AI was interrogated several times by representatives of the United States.
Q You have also had a number of consultations with Dr. Stahmer who has just examined you?
AI had several discussions with Dr. Stahmer who as just addressed questions to me.
QThose questions were addressed to you some time ago and you prepared your answers in writing?
AThese questions were submitted to me before and I was able to prepare my answers.
QComing to the subject of the concentration camps and the activities of your department in releasing persons from them, as I understand you, a large number of applications came to the Goering office for release from concentration camps.
AI stated before that the requests that people be released from concentration camps did not come to me but to the staff. I received only the requests in which people requested help because they had been taken prisoner, among them Jews who were about to be arrested.
QWere those applications that did come to you numerous?
AMy sector was only the field of the Luftwaffe. There were perhaps 10 to 20 such applications.
QAnd those applications were from persons who were threatened with imprisonment or had been in prison, or both?
AIn part, people who were already under arrest, and in part, people who were about to be arrested.
QAnd in each case, as I understand you, you intervened to help them.
AOn instructions of the Reichsmarshal, in all cases I helped those that came to me.
QAnd did you know of any other cases that came to the staff in which help was not given to the imprisoned persons?
AI don't know anything about that. I heard from Dr. Witzbach, Chief of Staff, that the requests that came to him were settled in a humane way.
Q Now, were the persons that you intervened for innocent of crime or were you helping people out who were guilty of crime?
AThose were innocent people, those I helped.
QSo it came to your notice that innocent people were being put in concentration camps.
ACould you please repeat that question.
AIt came to your notice that innocent people then were being put in concentration camps.
AHad not been put into concentration camps, but were to be put in.
QI thought you said you intervened for some who had been arrested.
AYes; they were not brought to concentration camps. I will give you a practical example. A comrade of mine, from the Richthofer Squadron, who was a Jew, was arrested by the Gestapo, was not taken to a concentration camp, but first was simply arrested by the Gestapo. His lawyer informed me. I informed the Reichsmarshal of this case, and the Reichsmarshal instructed me to have this ran freed from his temporary custody by the Gestapo. He was not yet in a concentration camp. This case happened in 1943.
QWhat was he charged with when he was arrested?
AHe was arrested because he was a Jew and he had been told that he had offended in some way against morals, in that he met an Aryan woman in a hotel room.
QAnd did you make any inquiries as to whether the charge was true?
AI did not have to make such inquiries because I had no difficulty in obtaining his release. When I called up, he was released and thereafter stayed under the protection of Hermann Goering.
QWho did you call up to get his release?
AThe Chief of the Gestapo, the chief office in Hamburg. I don't know the name. I didn't make the call myself, but my assistant did so.
QSo that the Gestapo would release persons upon the request of Hermann Goering?
A Not from Herman Goering's office, but the Reichsmarshal gave specific instructions that that was to occur, and then it did.
QI thought you said your assistant called up. Did Goering also call the Gestapo himself?
ANo, he himself did not, not in this case.
QSo that even though this man may have been guilty of the charge, if he belonged to the Luftwaffe hewas released, on the word of the Reichsmarshal?
AHe was not a member of the Luftwaffe, he was a civilian. He had previously been one of our comrades in our Richthofen Squadron. He was not in the Wehrmacht.
QBut your instructions were to release all persons who were Jews or who were from the Luftwaffe? Were those your instructions from Gearing?
AThe Reichsmarshal told me, again and again, that in such a special case I should act humanely, and I did so in every case.
QNow, did you find that Jews were arrested that there were no charges against?
AIn one case, in the case of the two families Ballin--these were two older married couples, more than 60 years old. These two couples were to be arrested, and I was informed of this. I told the Reichsmarshal about it, and he told me that these two couples should be taken to a foreign country.
That was a question of the two couples Ballin. In 1923, when Hermann Goering was seriously wounded in front of the Feldherrnhalle, when he was going back to a house, he was taken in by this family and given medical help. Those two families were to be arrested.
QFor what?
AThey were to be arrested because there was a general order that Jews should be collected in camps.
QAnd you knew of that order?
AI did not know the order; it was only through this example, that went through me, that it became clear to me that this transport of Jews should take place. I never read the order myself, nor even heard of it, because I had nothing to do with that.
QIt came to your attention that Jews were being thrown into concentration camps merely because they were Jews?
A I am not speaking of concentration camps, but the Jews were to be brought to special collection camps.
QNot concentration camps, but special camps? Where were they going from there?
AThat I do not knew.
QAnd whore was this special camp that you speak of?
AI do not know where they were taken to. We simply knew that they were to be taken away.
QBut neither you nor Goering had any suspicion that if they were taken to concentration camps any harm would come to them, did you?
AWhat took place in the concentration camps I knew nothing about.
QNow didn't you hear about the concentration camps, and wasn't the purpose of your saving these people from going to them that the people who went there were mistreated?
AI must reiterate that the people Were freed from their first imprisonment with the Gestapo that were not yet in the concentration camp.
QWhat would the Gestapo take them into custody for if not the concentration camp?
AWhat purpose the Gestapo was pursuing with these arrests I do not know.
QBut you intervened to save them from the Gestapo without even finding out whether the Gestapo had cause for arresting them?
AIf the Gestapo arrested any one, then there must have been something against him.
QBut you made no inquiry into that, did you?
A I have already said it was generally known that these people were taken to collection camps, not concentration camps, but they were to be taken away.
Many people know that; they knew that the people were taken to work camps, and in these work camps they were put to work.
QForced labor?
APlease?
QForced labor?
AIt was just ordinary work. I knew, for instance, that in Lodz the people worked in the textile industry.
QAnd where were they kept while they were doing that work?
AI can't say; I did not know.
QThey were in a camp, weren't they?
AI do not know.
QYou wouldn't know about that?
AI have no idea.
QWhat is the difference between a work camp and a concentration camp? you have drawn that distinction.
AA work camp is a camp in which people were housed without their being in any way ill-treated.
QAnd a concentration camp is where they are ill-treated?
AI can only say that to you, because in the meantime I discovered that through the press and through my imprisonment; at that time I did not know it. I learned that from the newspapers. I was in English imprisonment for quite a while, and that is where I found out about it.
QYou spoke of collection camps, that many people knew they were being taken to collection camps to be taken away. Where were they being taken away?
AI do not know.
QDid you ever inquire?
ANo, I never inquired.
QYou were adjutant to the number two man in Germany, were you not?
AYes.
Q And you never ventured to ask him about the concentration camps?
ANo, I never spoke to him on that theme.
QThe only instructions you had were to get everybody out that you could?
AWhere a request was made or a complaint, I followed those cases down, and in those cases I assisted,
QYou knew that Hermann Goering was a close co-worker with Himmler, didn't you?
AThat he was a fellow worker with Himmler, I knew, because I had something to do with it. Himmler frequently came to conferences with Hermann Goering, but these were, however, private conversations just between Goering and Himmler.
QAnd you knew that he was not only a friend, but that he had aided Kaltenbrunner to his post when Kaltenbrunner came into office, did you not?
ANo, that I didn't know.
QYou didn't know that?
AThat Reichsmarshal Goering recommended Kaltenbrunner for his office? That I did not know. My activity was confined simply to the military center. I was military adjutant for the Reichsmarshal. I had nothing to do with these things.
QDid you have anything to do with the procedure of making full Aryans out of half-Jews?
AOn the question of mixed blood, requests in the field of the Luftwaffe came to me, to wit, officers, according to the regulations, would have to be dismissed from the army if they had mixed blood. In many cases the Reichsmarshal gave instructions that these officers should not be dismissed.
QWhat was done about it?
AIn these cases the chief of the personnel office was instructed not to dismiss these individuals.
QAnd in some cases some kind of an order was made, was it not, that they were full Aryans, notwithstanding Jewish parentage?
A At the moment I can remember no such case.
QYou spoke of the requests for help from Goering coming from broad masses of people, and those requests were submitted to his staff. Is that right?
AYes.
QAnd who was the head of that staff?
AAt the head of the staff stood the chief of the staff, Dr. Witzbach.
QHow many assistants did he have?
AThere were three divisions: The press section, with Dr. Goerner in charge of that; private secretary --there were three such sections.
QAnd which of these sections handled the peoples requests for relief from arrest?
ADr. Witzbach and Dr. Goerner were concerned with that.
QTo whom did they talk about these matters, do you know?
AThese gentlemen, as well as myself, submitted these matters to the Reichsmarshal.
QSo that he was kept fully informed of what you did and of what they did?
APlease repeat the question.
Q The Reichsmarshal was kept fully informed of these applications to you and to the other sections?
AFrom me he was kept in such orientation.
QAnd as I understand you he never failed to give you assistance to any one of the applications that was made to him, so far as you know?
ASo far as any requests addressed to my office or to me personally he never refused assistance and actually always did help.
QAnd never inquired into the guilt or innocence of the person he was helping?
AIn most cases, of course, they were innocent; that was already established.
QNow, you were present on the 20th of July at the bomb explosion, as I understand from your direct testimony?
AOn the 20th of July I was present at that conference and stood very near to the bomb.
QWhere was Hermann Goering that day?
AHermann Goering was in his headquarters on that day about seventy kilometers from the Fuehrer Headquarters.
QOnly seventy kilometers away; is that right? And at that time were you instructed to represent him at that meeting?
AI was not instructed to represent him at this meetings I took part in this conference as in any other one as a listener. I had no such orders to represent Goering in the Fuehrer Headquarters; I simply came to the Fuehrer Headquarters to inform him of what went on there.
QYou represented him to listen but not to talk; is that right?
AI didn't say very much; I was simply a listener and was to inform him as to what took place at the conference, what would interest him in his capacity as Reichsmarshal.
QHowever, in advance of that meeting were you instructed to a ttend the meeting?
AAt this meeting on the 20th of July, on the 19th of July I was on a special commission sent to Muenster Lager to review an Italian division. On the 20th of July, at noon, I came by air to the Fuehrer Headquarters, gave Hitler a military communication, and Hitler said to me, "Come along to the camp." I didn't want to go but I did, and after fifteen minutes the attempted assassination took place.
QWho sent you with the message? Whose message was it that you were delivering?
AI was commissioned at that time by Reichsmarshal Goering, in Muenster Lager, to attend the review of the Italian division there and to tell Field Marshal Graziani that the men in this division were to be used to command flak guns. After Field Marshal Graziani had not declared himself agreeable to this I was obliged to go to the Fuehrer Headquarters by air. It had been originally arranged that I should go by train and should go from-
QAnswer my question, witness. Just answer the question, please, and you will save us agreat deal of time. Whose message were you carrying to the Fuehrer?
AI brought the message that Graziani was not disposed to using these soldiers of the Italian division as had been suggested.
QAnd before you started for the Fuehrer Headquarters you communicated with Goering about it, didn't you?
ABefore my departure, when I went to the Muenster Lager, that was a few days before I had spoken to him. I had spoken to him when I returned to the Fuehrer Headquarters. At twelve-fifteen I telephoned Hermann Goering in his headquarters and gave him the same message.
QAnd did he instruct you to go to the Fuehrer Headquarters at that time and give the message to the Fuehrer?
AThis trip from Muenster Lager I made on my own initiative because it was important to Adolf Hitler to know of this information before Graziani arrived at the Fuehrer Headquarters, where he was expected at three o'clock on July 20.
QAs I understand you, Goering wanted a peaceful outcome of the negotiations at Munich?
AHe said that to me several times.
QAnd he was highly pleased with the outcome that was achieved there?
AHe was very pleased. I emphasized that before when I said that when he came from the conference room he said spontaneously, "That is peace".
QAnd when you cay thatGoering wanted peace with Poland he also wanted that same kind of a peace, didn't he?
ARegarding peace with Poland I did not speak with him.
QDid he send someone or induce Hitler to take someone to Munich in order to counter-check Ribbentrop?
AI know personally only the following in this matter. Here in imprisonment Captain Wiedemann told me that Hermann Goering had expressed the wish to take von Neurath with him, and Wiedemann told me that Hitler had corresponded to that.
QNow, you were interrogated by the United States about this subject before Wiedemann got here, weren't you?
ABefore?
QBefore Wiedemann was brought here.
AI was not interrogated on this subject.
QWere you interrogated on the 6th day of November 1945, and did you not then say that Goering used very harsh words about Ribbentrop and asked Hitler to take Neurath to Munich with him in order to have a representative present? Did you not say that to the interrogators of the United States?
AAt the moment I can not recall. If that is in my interrogatory then it must be so.
QThis meeting as to which you have -- oh, by the way, after Munich you knew that Goering gave his word of honor to the Czechs that there would be no further aggression against them, do you not?
APlease repeat the question?
QYou know that after Munich, when Goering was pleased with the outcome, he gave his word of honor that there would be no further aggression against the Czechs. Did you know that?
ANo, I didn't know that.
QThis meeting that took place in London, I mean the meeting that took place when the Englishmen were present-
A In Husum, yes.
QWho was the Swedish person who was present?
AHerr Dahlerus was the Swede who was present.
QWho were the English who were present.
AThere were six to eight English economic experts. The names I don't know.
QAnd at that time--by the way, have you fixed the time of that? What was the date?
AI can't say precisely. It was the beginning of August.
QWasn't it August the 7th?
AI can't say.
QWas Mr. Dahlerus there?
AThe question was whether Dahlerus was there? I can't remember one hundred percent; I only knew that I spoke with my lawyer and he said that Dr. Dahlerus was there, but I can not swear one hundred percent that he was there. I assume he was. The defense counsel Dr. Stahmer told me that he was there, that was the reason why I said previously that Hermann Goering and Dahlerus were present at that conference.
QAnd the subject under discussion was the Polish relations with the German Reich?
ANot about Polish questions but relationships between England and Germany. There was no talk of relationships with Poland.
QAnd Goering wanted the English gentlemen to see that England didn't attack Germany?
AHe didn't press it quite that way; he said, as I have already stated, the English gentlemen should, when they return home, work in the same way that he was working for peace and to make their influence felt in important circles.
QNow,wasn't that said in connection with the Polish negotiations that were then going on?
AI can not remember that any mention was made of such negotiations.
QWere you with Hermann Goering when the Polish war broke out?
AWhen the Polish war broke out I was in Berlin.
Q Were you still in your office under Hermann Goering's command?
AYes, I was under Hermann Goering's command.
QWhen did you first begin preparing for a movement of your forces in the direction of Poland?
AI can't make any definitive statement on that subject; that was a matter with which the General Staff was concerned. I know only that in the time before the beginning of the war the General Staff several times visited the High Command of the Luftwaffe, Hermann Goering, and that this matter was discussed. I myself am not oriented with what or how many forces were to be used in the Polish campaign.
QWere you present at the time the conference in which Hermann Goering informed that he, right after Munich, had orders to multiply the air force by five?
AI can not recall any such discussion.
QYou know that the air force was greatly enlarged after Munich?
ANo, I don't know that. There was a plan that the Luftwaffe was augmented, but I can not say at all what the German Luftwaffe, at the beginning of the Polish war, had either in the way of leaders or armament or materiel.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Justice Jackson, would you like to adjourn now or would you like to go on in order to finish?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:This would be a convenient time; I am sure we can't finish before lunch hour.
THE PRESIDENT:You would like to adjourn now?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT:Very well.
(A recess auras taken until 1400 hours.)
Official transcript of the International Military Tribunal in the matter of The United States of America, the French Re public, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics against Hermann Wilhelm Goering et al, Defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 8 March 1946, 1400-1700, Lord Justice Lawrence presiding.
THE PRESIDENT:We will have no open session tomorrow.
GENERAL RUDENKO:I want to say a few words with respect to the subject of defense. The Defense referred to a document this morning, saying that it did not have the document with regard to Katyn. I want to report right here that on the 13th of February of this year this document, USSR 54, consisting of thirty copies, all in the German language, was given to the Document Room for purposes of the Defense. We did not think that we had to present the document to each attorney for the Defense separately. We considered that if the Document Division received the document, the attorneys for the Defense would receive the copies.
This is all I want to report here.
DR.LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW): There must be a misunderstanding about the number of this document. At that time, in open session, the Russian Prosecutor submitted a document under the number, USSR-64. USSR-64 has not been distributed. I have not received it, and upon request at the Information Room of the Defendants' Counsel, upon two requests, I have not received it.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, we will inquire into the matter.
GENARAL KARL VONBODENSCHATZ resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
QPrevious to the Spring of 1943, as I understand you, Hermann Goering was a man of great influence in the councils of the Reich?
ABefore the year 1943 -- or until the year 1943, Hermann Goering always had access to the Fuehrer and his influence was important.
QIn fact, it was the most important in Germany, outside of the Fuehrer himself, was it not?
AWithin the Reich he had great influence, very great influence.
QAir power was his special mission and his special pride, was it not?
AHe was, as an old flier, very proud to be able to build up and lead the Air Force.
QHe had more confidence in air power as a weapon of war than most of the other men of his time, didn't he?
AAt any rate, he was convinced that his air force was very good; but I have to repeat what I said before: At the beginning of the war, in the year 1939, this stage had not been reached by the air force. I repeat that at that time the air force was, as far as leadership and material were concerned, not ready for war.
QBut ever since you first went with Hermann Goering you had been rapidly building up the air force, had you not?
AThe building up of the air force went relatively fast.
QAnd when you first went withGoering -- I have forgotten what year you said that was.
AI came to Hermann Goering in 1933. At that time there was no supreme commander of the air force, just a Reich Commissariat for Aviation. But even at that time the beginning of the building up of the air force -- the first beginnings -- started. However, it was only after 1935 when the freedom of building up the force was declared, that it was speeded up.
Q.And the building up of the air force was very largely in bombers, was it not?
AIt was not bombers in the main; it was mixed -- fighters and bombers both,
QGoering also had charge of the four-year plan?
AHe had received the mission from the Fuehrer to execute the fouryear plan.
QHe also held several other offices, did he not?
AHermann Goering, besides being Supreme Commander of the Luftwaffe, was charged with the four-year plan before, at the beginning of the seizure of power.
He was minister for the Interior in Prussia, and Minister President, President of the Reichstag and Reich Forestry Minister.
Q I notice that you use here -- as you have used in your interrogations by the United States -- the expression "seizure of power."
That was the common expression used in your group, was it not, to describe the coming to power of Adolf Hitler?
AIn this sense, No. It cannot be said in this sense. At that time it was completely legal. It was just that the National Socialist was the strongest party, and the strongest party nominated the Reich Chancellor and had the strongest influence. It cannot be understood in such a way, that they assumed power, but they had the most important position among the parties that is completely lega, by election.
QYou want to change the word "seizure," do you?
AYes, I have to change that. It is more an expression which was circulated in the press at that time; it was common usage in the press.
QHermann Goering got along without any open break with Hitler until 1945, didn't he?
AUntil the year 1945 there was no open break. It was only at the end, as I have said before, the arrest.
QThe arrest was the first open break that had occurred between them, is that right?
AYes, the first big break, which could be seen from the outside. But since the year 1943, as I have said before, there was already -- in the attitude of the two men -- an estrangement.
QThat was kept from the German public, was it not?
AThat was not visible from the outside, It was a development which had taken place from the Spring of 1943 to 1945 -- first to a small extent, and then the tension became greater and greater.
QWhen the arrest was made it was made by the SS, was it not?
AI have only heard that, that at Obersalzburg allegedly a unit of SS had arrived and arrested Hermann Goering in his small house and kept him there. As to that, perhaps the witness to be questioned later, Colonel von Brauchitsch, -- who was presented at this address and who was arrested himself -- can give more details.
QYou were not arrested by the SS, were you?
A At that time, since the 20th of July, 1944, when I had been seriously injured, I was in the hospital.
I was close to Berchtesgaden, at Bad Reichenhall, for recuperation.
QWhenever there were conferences which you attended, was it not the custom at the conclusion of Hitler's address to the group, for Goering as the ranking man present, to assure the Fuehrer on behalf of himself and his fellow officers of their support of his plan?
AOf course, I was not present at all conferences. I only was listener at this particular conference. These conferences in which I took part -it happened on and off that the Reichsmarshal at the end made a remark and assured that the will of the Fuehrer would be executed, but at the moment I cannot remember any particularconference of that kind.
Q You can not remember any conference at which he did not do it either, can you?
AYes, it was not always done. Just the contrary. It was not the rule that he did that. In the Reichstag Hermann Goering always made a speech at the end, after a session had ended, and in these speeches he expressed his confidence in Adolf Hitler.
QDid he not do that at every meeting of officers at which the Fuehrer was present?
AI would ask you to repeat the question. I have not quite understood it. I beg you to excuse me, but due to my injury, I would like to say, I have lost fifty per cent of my hearing, and therefore I beg you to excuse me if I ask to repeat.
QQuite all right, sir. Do you know of any conference between Hitler and his High Command at which Goering did not close the meeting as the ranking officer present by making assurances of support to Hitler's plan.
AThere were many conferences--most of the conferences--where nothing was said at the end; when the Fuehrer had finished, that was the end of the meeting.
QIn 1943 when Goering began to lose influence with Hitler, it was a very embarrassing time for Goering, was it not?
AHermann Goering suffered from this fact. He said frequently to me that he would suffer very much from that.
QFrom the fact that the Fuehrer was losing confidence in him? He was suffering from the fact that the Fuehrer was losing confidence in him? was that what was causing his suffering?
AThat may have been part of the reason, but it came to differences of opinion about the Luftwaffe.
QNow, in the spring of 1943, it was apparent to you and apparent to him that the war was lost for Germany, was it not?
AI can not say that. The Reichsmarshal never made a statement to me in 1943 that the war was lost, but that there were great difficulties; that it would become very dangerous, but that the war was finally lost, I can not remember that the Reichsmarshal in the spring of 1943 should have made a statement of that kind to me.